Here’s the Great Thing About Abortion

my-choice

This past week I conducted a minor experiment. I crossed over from pro-life to pro-choice. Now, I kept this experiment completely internal – I didn’t tell anyone for two reasons: 1) I didn’t want to freak anyone out, and 2) I think there are a lot of closet pro-choicers out there, so I chose to be one of them.

I admit, I was hoping to find different results than what I anticipated simply for more engaging content for this blog post. I threw out all of my pro-life notions, my biblical and fundamental world views, and thought like an abortionist. (Except for one instance where I shared a hand-drawn picture on Facebook that was of a baby inside a pregnant woman and the caption read, “Coexist.” I just couldn’t resist.)

Anyway, I spent the week reasoning out, like a pro-choicer would, the benefits of abortion. I considered things like population control, selective breeding, accidental pregnancies, etc.

And, to be quite honest, it all narrowed down to just one thing. Me. The only reason I could possibly justify abortion was because of Me – My wants, My needs, My timing, My convenience, My mind, My body, My uterus (not really), My choice. Me.

Try as I might, I couldn’t really get on board with the whole population control issue. Ten minutes on Google Earth reminded me just how large this planet is, and we are nowhere near overpopulation. I fiddled around with the idea that I wouldn’t want to bring a baby into this dark, evil world…

Let me stop right there. Allow me to elaborate on this one. Christians are the first group to stand up against abortion at all costs, right? And Christians maintain that, according to the Bible, this world is full of evil and the days are only going to get darker. Most Christians also believe that all babies and children before a certain age go to Heaven. You would think that Christians would be okay with abortions – but we are not – because an abortion simply cannot be seen as anything short of murder – especially in the eyes of God. Christians are to be a light in dark places and stand up against such evil acts. So those who think they are saving a child from an evil world by killing him are only contributing to the darkness that we are trying to fight.

So, obviously, as a pro-choicer, I couldn’t get on board with that idea. That’s why we raise our children up according to the wisdom and conduct of the Bible.

Honestly, a rape was the only occurrence where I could come close to justifying an abortion and that’s why, I believe, pro-choicers fall back on this in almost every  abortion discussion. Although the issue of how many rapes result in pregnancy is highly debated, no matter the number, it does not come close to the total number of abortions that take place.

But, even as a pro-choicer, I don’t believe that shooting a child who witnessed a crime is justified. So logically, I cannot believe that taking the life of a baby that was conceived by rape is bringing justice to anyone. If we truly want to avenge those who have been raped, let’s talk about capitol punishment for a while…

So, clearly my experiment wasn’t very successful in finding any common ground with pro-choicers. I want to hear from you. I am opening up the floor to discussion. If you support abortion in any way, or are on the fence, I truly want to hear from you. Leave a comment below. I want to hear your reasons for being pro-choice if they differ from my result: “It’s only about me.”

Along with possible spam and inappropriate messages, the only comments I will delete will be from pro-lifers talking disrespectfully to anyone.

 

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My lovely wife and I are foster parents, dog owners, home owners, and Christians. I am a blogger, book editor, and author. On my blog you'll read about adoption, faith topics, inspirational thoughts, and a whole lotta Disney/Pixar lovin'! For the most exciting read ever, check out my suspense/adventure novel, The Man in the Box. You. Will. Love it.

233 Responses to Here’s the Great Thing About Abortion

  1. Jane Sadek says:

    Our mistake as Christians is in trying to legislate what we believe to be right. If you take faith and the Bible out of it, the world’s choices seem to make a lot of sense. I said “seem to” because the world can’t see how their choices are destroying what is truly good – like the family unit the way God planned for it to be. It may be time to let every man and woman do what is right in their own eyes. Either God will just get disgusted with it all and end the world or we’ll have a revival of ginormous proportions.

    • Monica Benninghoff says:

      Relativism is not the answer, but breeds a whole new set of problems. Stand up for what you believe. Values and morality are worth defending. Giving up by condoning what is immoral isn’t doing anyone any favors. We are to love our brothers and sisters. Being wishy-washy with your faith is not setting a good example.

      • Jane Sadek says:

        I do not endorse relativism, but I also do not believe it is up to us to force anyone to abide by our set of rules. That’s not loving our neighbors as we do ourselves. I do stand up for what I believe in, but I do that by living my life according to what the Bible says and being ready to defend it in love. Just because I’m not blowing up abortion clinics or out in the street protesting against alternate lifestyles does not mean I condone these things. Anyone who knows me knows what my standards are. They know wishy washy doesn’t belong in a sentence with my name in it, but they also know I love them, whatever their lifestyle is. I believe God woos each of us to faith, but not so we can go out and beat everyone else into line. If we really want things to change, we need to be down on our knees praying, not out in the street protesting. The battle is the Lord’s.

    • oldchazz says:

      Our mistake as Christians is to allow legislation that defines Christianity as a cult, superstition or theory. The concept of forced Christianity by legislation is a personification developed by the media to propagate an anti Christian ideology.
      I think if we experienced Christianity and the personal aspects of Jesus centered religion. we wouldn’t find the worlds choices to make a lot of sense. In fact after viewing life from the perspective of an eternity. the choices would be clear.

      • Jane Sadek says:

        I think if we lived what we believed, instead of just talking about how everyone else is doing it wrong, the non-believers would be standing in line to get what we had. Most of the politically active Christians I know spend so much time telling everyone else what they should think about politics that the Good News of the Salvation message gets lost in the white noise.

        • oldchazz says:

          very profound statement. thank you. i also think there is a political effort to silence the Christians. The active aggression against me by government has “transformed” America into something i don’t recognize. i rant sometimes over the loss of the ten commandments in public, the national anthem and pledge of allegiance, the way it was part of early childhood development. i should be more positive…

      • Jane Sadek says:

        Oldchazz I do think there is a political effort to silence Christians, but if God is for us, who can be against us. We’re just using the wrong tools. Prayer, fasting and charity to others will net more results for our Lord than all the legislation, protesting and sign carrying in the world. People are dying for love and too often our answer is to engage them in a numbers game, defeating their legislation and trying to have bigger rallies than they do. Are we turning the other cheek, walking the extra mile and giving up the shirts on our backs? Not quite, and those are the tools Jesus told us to use.

        • revolsen says:

          What particular political efforts to silence Christianity are you referring to? Are there particular laws, statutes or ordinances that restrict a Christian’s rights to speak, worship or otherwise express their faith?

          • Jane Sadek says:

            I’d say your question was a case in point, but for instance, I returned to college as an adult. One of my classes was a poetry workshop and on the first day the teacher asked us why we were taking the class. One girl said because she wanted to learn to write poetry to express her faith. She was asked which faith and when she said Christianity the teacher asked that the student stay after class. The next time the class met, the girl wasn’t there. I didn’t think too much about it until later in the class when I was told some of my poetry was inappropriate. They were not poems about Christianity, but had Christian themes or references. It was great to use profanity, write to any goddesses you might have an interest in and be down right vulgar, but if you suggested that you were a Christian you were politically incorrect. That’s just one instance. I could go on for days and not just from the college experience, but I thought that best expressed what I meant. But there are other things, like Chickfilet being barred from Chicago and my tax dollars funding Planned Parenthood and the list goes on. However, I render unto Caesar what is his and pray, rather than reporting the teacher for discrimination or picketing or other activities that involve direct confrontation. I am no activist. I’m just someone trying my best to live my faith.

            • revolsen says:

              As far as your class experience is concerned, you are certainly within your rights to express yourself. Your professor is also within his or her rights to tell you she doesn’t think much of your poetry. But if the grading is based on political, religious of philosphical content, your prof has crossed a line and your objections are justified. Professors have biases-I have never met any without them. Good ones recognize them and don’t allow them to interfere with their assessment of their students. But not all professors are good or competent and that is not a matter of legislation. It’s just a matter of professional standards. Most colleges solicit input from the student body on a professor’s performance evaluation and that is where these issues should be addressed. As for your tax dollars going for things you don’t agree with, take a number and sit down. Government does all kinds of things I don’t think are smart, effecient or effective. As a pacifist, I don’t like supporting the military with a single cent. But I don’t think that amounts to being persecuted for my convictions. I also don’t think it is feasable to send out a questionaire with each tax return allowing everyone to designate which government programs they want to support.

  2. Chrystal says:

    “And, to be quite honest, it all narrowed down to just one thing. Me.” Oooooh……ya know, come to think of it, that’s the same reason for most of the world’s problems…..

  3. This is a tough topic and no where as simple as you have laid out here

  4. Christina Karnes says:

    I am skeptical that you really put aside your personal beliefs and considered the opposing point of view. There are many more complex arguments for the pro choice position than you lay out here and it’s insulting for you to label every person who holds a pro choice position as being selfish and also to make the assumption that women who get abortions don’t consider things like the life that child may have, the lives of other children they have etc. It seems like the idea behind this was to walk in the other person’s shoes but you don’t seem to have really achieved that. If you had, perhaps you’d recognize that it’s a more complicated issue than you’ve laid out here and perhaps you’d be less judgmental of those who have different religious views etc from you.

    • MishaBurnett says:

      This post is specifically asking for people to explain the reasoning behind the pro-choice position. Here’s your chance to explain why it complicated, and what has led you to your position.

      • Christina Karnes says:

        I don’t have the time or inclination to get into the long and lengthy debate that would surely ensue once I explained the reasoning behind my position. And it’d be pointless to do when someone has decided that the only reason for an abortion is me, me, me. But if the author truly wanted to consider the opposing point of view she’d be better served to read/listen to testimonies of women as to their personal reasons for choosing to have an abortion rather than pondering arguments like population control and the evil in the world which I am very skeptical a young girl or woman considering an abortion thinks about…it’d be the rare teenager or young adult woman who said “I’ve got to have an abortion because there are too many people on the planet.” I don’t have a problem with the fact that she continued to have a anti-abortion opinion. I do take issue with how well she set aside her preconceived beliefs in considering the opposing viewpoint and with the judgmental nature of her conclusion that all women who have an abortion do so because they are selfish.

        • Grace says:

          Here, here Christina! You couldn’t be more spot on and I had similar thoughts myself whilst reading this arrogant and self righteous post. Until one has been on both sides, no one has the right to discuss a subject. I find it humorous that said author thinks providing the answer (abortion is selfish) and then asking for readers to be transparent and vulnerable by sharing personal experiences absurd and ignorant. Some ‘christians’ have no clue or grace. (This from a pro-life christian having had an abortion, ie: actual experience on both sides and therefore, good understanding of grace and justice – God is our judge, redeemer and forgives anything)

      • MishaBurnett says:

        Well, if you don’t feel comfortable talking about your reasons for supporting abortion, I can respect that. However, we can’t be expected to know what those reasons are if you don’t tell us.

    • In a humanistic society (where man/self is god), an abortion is no different than the pagans of old who sacrificed their children to false gods in the hopes of appeasing them. Today, if a woman is afraid that her ideal life would be harmed by the presence of a child which came helplessly from her own womb, she feels she must (or desires to) sacrifice that child on the altar of humanistic ideals (personal rights to choose what she wants) to protect her own agenda/happiness. You can justify it however you want, but abortion in the end is selfish—just like adultery, theft, traditional murder, rape, laziness, obesity, anxiety, and just about any social ill you can imagine.

      • glasshill says:

        Perhaps you could research what it meant to be Pagan before you made absurd statements about them. Pagan actually means “of the people” and encompasses many belief systems and practices, human sacrifice not being one of them. Historically Christains are not without blood on their hands and to act as though this is not the case is a little hypocritical, casting first stones and all that. A more informed an respectful would better represent your position.

        • A simple dictionary definition illuminates what I mean by using a word that has been used historically to refer to those who follow (and sacrifice to) false gods. A synonym of pagan is “idolater.” History tells of many idolatrous religions that involved the sacrifice of children to false gods. Secondly, I never said that those claiming the title “Christian” haven’t committed evils in the past (and present). I will assure you, though, that there are many who call themselves “Christians” who are in no way true followers of Christ. I said in my previous comment that abortion is selfish. I don’t see how your comment served to refute that claim. I mean no contempt in this statement. It is simply true.

      • glasshill says:

        I’ve taught comparative religions to middle school kids for a few years at my church and one of the things that is frustrating is incorrect definitions and misconceptions about different faith groups. Humanists actually believe in doing good not for any heavenly reward or because God tells them to, but because it is the right and good thing to do, and they do it just because it needs to be done, not because they believe in any after life. It is not man/self is god as you state. With Pagans, who is to say what is a true or a false god? Much of Christian practices come from Pagan festivals and practices (ever wonder where the Easter Bunny and eggs came from?). I do agree with you about Christians, some of the most beautiful people I know are Christian and follow Christ’s teachings, they are doing such good in the world, It is very sad so many use his name to promote selfish and very UN-Christian ends.

        Getting to the topic of this blog, the point I should have made initially to your comment, I have had to make the choice about having an abortion myself and have known other women who have had to make this decision as well. The decision has never been anything other than utterly heartbreaking, to call it selfish is hurtful. I found that for myself I could never abort my child, but it was a choice I made. Pro-choice means choice, it means you can choose to have the baby, to put the child up for adoption, or in rare causes abort. It is never a choice taken lightly.

        • I am sorry that my comment was hurtful to you. I do not know you or your story. I was not speaking to you, but about my beliefs concerning the general topic. Because I firmly believe—based upon the truth of God’s Word—that abortion is murder, it would have been hypocritical for me to say it is anything but selfish. I hope you can understand and accept that.

          Concerning the first half of your reply, I am familiar with the information you presented, but the fact is that you took several half truths and spun them with a relativistic worldview to come out with an answer that doesn’t stand. In short, I don’t think this is something to sort out in the comments section of a blog post. :)

          • glasshill says:

            I didn’t find it at all hurtful. Actually this blog and the various discussions have been enlightening and overall quite respectful.

            We can discuss religion another time ;-) I’ve actually enjoyed the conversation here. Thank you. :-)

      • I was apologizing because you said, “to call it selfish is hurtful.” I’m glad you enjoyed this post. It was certainly a mixing pot of radically different world views. God bless. If you find that your choice to abort leaves you feeling saddened, in Christ there is always forgiveness. No matter what we do, His forgiveness will be complete and liberating! :) Let me know if you have any questions…

        • glasshill says:

          Thank you. I chose NOT to have the abortion, but it was a significant and important experience for me. I think Christ’s teachings are marvelous, but I have another faith community that provides me with tremendous support and love. (I go to and teach at a Unitarian Universalist Church ).
          Blessed be.

      • Mark Miller says:

        It’s interesting to me that the bible does lump all sins and their consequences together, as you point out “adultery, theft, traditional murder, rape, laziness, obesity, anxiety, and just about any social ill you can imagine” but there aren’t huge movements of christians passionately protesting against the institutions which contribute to Laziness, Obesity and Anxiety. Why aren’t there more christians spending more time and energy on picketing and crusading against McDonalds and GameStop and other things which “cause” the ills you mention.

        I do struggle with alot of this stuff, as I consider myself a christian, so I’m not trying to really refute anyone’s arguments, just trying to follow some of them to a conclusion I don’t oftern hear explored.

        I respect anyone that has the conviction to stand-up for what they believe, and I’m really impressed by how respectful and intelligent everyone is in the discussion (or at least Clayton and Glasshill….. sorry I don’t have the attention span to read everyone)

        • I hear you, Mark, and would simply say the big difference in response probably comes from the fact that those picketers believe abortion is legalized murder of the helpless. You really can’t blame them for their drastic measures.

        • I think it’s because abortion is a more time-sensitive issue, and lives hang on a thread. Also, in the case of the First Lady, she’s already raising a stink against obesity and fast-food chains. And let’s not forget that in order for Christians to make a more social stand against these things, that would mean we would all have to cut off our fast food and gaming habits. And I think it’s one of those issues that we can at least participate in in moderation, so we cannot judge or assume how long or often someone is engaging in these things. That’s my two-cents on that.

        • Grace says:

          Nailed it.

  5. Jae says:

    What frustrates me is “pro-choice” tends to always mean: that choice is abortion. Despite hundreds if not thousands of childless couples who would be overjoyed to adopt any unwanted children, what could be another ‘choice’ what tends to be pushed is abortion.

    • El Guapo says:

      I’ve always taken pro-choice to mean just that – that what you choose to do with the life growing inside of you is just that, Your choice.
      It isn’t for me (or anyone else) to tell you you have to raise that child, nor is it for me (or anyone else) to say that I think you’re an unfit parent, and shouldn’t have that child.

      And there are lots and lots of unswanted children in the system already.

      • tljax says:

        The very use of the term “pro-choice” is a political move to make “pro-abortion” sound less heinous and bring a few fence-riders over to their side of the voting aisle. A couple of voices on this blog post have claimed to be “pro-choice” but choosing life, which proves this manipulative tactic worked. Calling a pro-abortion viewpoint what it is casts shame and guilt where it belongs. I don’t mean to hurt those who have chosen abortion for whatever reason. The fact is whatever hurt I do merely points out that they are already wounded by their “choice.” Instead, I pray for a renewal of their mind, a confession of their soul, and a cleansing by the Holy Spirit to wash away whatever guilt they are hiding from themselves. There is no pain like the pain of having taken a life!

        You can’t lecture a person into realizing they are wrong. The fact that self absorbed people don’t realize they are self-absorbed merely proves they are. No one could have preached me into understanding that I was worshiping the idol of Self when I was being consumed by an eating disorder. Instead of hating and hurting each other, we are to love such people into realizing that all humans have value to their Creator. He proved it when He died for each one.

        If the Creator died for my baby, who am I to kill him or her?

        Here’s where the shoe fits the other foot: God also found the abortionist and the anxious mother worth dying for. Since He has declared their worth, who are we to condemn, when so many of us are guilty of the murderous sins of hatred, bitterness, and un-forgiveness? How can we attract one who, entrapped by despair, perpetrated sin, when we stand at the door waiting to pelt them with the guilt of it as they enter? True light casts out darkness. When one who has lived according to darkness comes into the light they will know how darkened they had been. But who would approach a light that burns? Let love draw the darkened to truth.

        2 Timothy 2:25-26 (NIV):
        “Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.”

        The challenge is making abortion less appealing for the uninformed until their eyes can be opened. We do that by petitioning our government to make it illegal. We, who know the value of life, could do nothing less. We don’t mean to harm the soul already scorched by the pain of abortion. We merely want to stop the killing. The problem is getting laws passed takes political influence and some of that has been gained by inappropriate means. The stones that should have been used to build a strong case were instead hurled at the opponents. For that, as a member of Christ’s global Church, I extend my deepest apologies.

        The experimenting author of this blog asked for reasons for deciding to abort a life. As a recovering addict I can simplify any sin back to its root cause of selfishness, but it took a long time and a lot of work to get to that point. So let’s back out of the definition of man for a minute and answer the question. Here are a few I cam up with:

        FEAR
        – that the baby will be diseased, different, alien to me (as in the case of rape)
        – that the mother will not be enough for the baby (Who hasn’t suffered from that doubt?)
        – that there will not be enough money to support the baby (or the expected lifestyle of the family)
        – that the father will, by the child’s existence, have some claim to the life of the mother
        – that the baby’s arrival will disrupt every plan, hope and dream the mother has pursued
        – that the baby will demand too much of me (They actually will. It is the sacrifice of love.)

        FINANCES (Some of these are redundant, but some will not see that.)
        – the baby will cost more than I have or am willing to contribute
        – if I “choose life” I won’t be able to ____ (finish college, support my other kids, save for future, etc.)

        FAMILY/FAITH/FRIENDS
        – My church will cast me out for being an “unwed mother”
        – My family will despise me, look down on me, judge me.
        – I have to maintain a certain image, and a baby on the hip just won’t do
        – I’m not done having fun with growing up myself yet. I’m not ready to raise another person.
        – God doesn’t want me to raise a life. I don’t deserve parenthood.

        These are just a few. There are thousands more. I don’t mean to be hurtful when I say that every one of them comes from a decision that Self ranks higher than God. This is what others mean when they make a simple argument like “abortion is selfish.” Selfishness is also at the root of many other decisions that remove us from perfect happiness like overeating, cheating, lying, criticism, gossip, hatred, lust. All of them are proofs that we need a Savior and He better be BIG. Praise God He is big enough to love us all back into His embrace if we will stop resisting, stop hating, lay our sins, our shames, and our resentments down at His feet, so He can collect us into His warm embrace.

      • tljax, praise God for your response and I agree with you about them changing the name from pro-abortionist to pro-choice to downsize the damage this does.

        There is no right in taking a life, but if a woman had an abortion God’s people shouldn’t condemn them also. There are so many groups in the world who say they are doing the work of the Lord who condemn people for having abortions. No matter what they did, they are hurting. Jesus does not make excuses for sin, He offers a better choice. Look at how Jesus showed grace to the woman at the well, the woman who committed adultery, the blind man, and countless others, including you and me. The Lord said in Luke 9 He did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save it. Several years ago I got pregnant with my daughter. I was messed up in my mind and my life. I had no money and 2 small children to care for and who needed me. My daughter’s father was not someone I wanted to be around her. I wanted to have an abortion, but the Lord kept me from doing so. Again, I was so messed up in my mind I tried to have my youngest son jump on my stomach to kill the baby. Again, the Lord kept that from happening. Today, I am a Christian and a very different person. The old man in me is dead and I received the newness of life through Christ Jesus. I did this all because the Lord didn’t judge me. He didn’t condemn me. He didn’t put me down. He died for my sins and the sins of the world. He just continued to love me and that drew me to Him. I Love Him because He truly Loved me 1st. His Grace is so Awesome. The Lord’s Grace doesn’t say He agree with any sin, but His Grace causes a person to be free from the bondage of sin. It’s because of His Grace I lean on Him to do better. It’s because of His Grace I’m a different person. I’m so glad to have His life and not my own. So, to live for Him is to allow His life to live through you.

        Remember when He said on the cross “Father, forgive them. They know not what they do. Remember what He did for the thief on the cross. Because the thief accepted Jesus, Jesus told him “Today shalt thou be with me in paradise”.

        So, why get caught up in being pro-life or pro-choice and be Christ like.

        Luke 9:52-56; And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, and sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

  6. One of the reasons that I cannot get on board with the “pro-lifers” is the absolutely contradictory notion that it is NOT okay to exercise choice in dealing with an unwanted pregnancy, but if you start to talk about their 2nd Amendment rights, you might get shot. Not literally, of course, but you can see what I mean. How can you be “pro-life” and “pro-gun” (anti-life) at the same time?

    • Wow, you’ve really twisted the issues, haven’t you?? The constitution’s laws (and furthermore, the Bible’s) are about PROTECTING life, not taking it away. Christians are anti-abortion because they value protecting the lives of the innocent, and many are pro-gun because they are about protecting the lives of the innocent. How do you spin pro-gun as being pro-death? That’s just irresponsible.

      • Many gun owners are irresponsible. Take the Zimmerman trial, for example. My point was how can you be against abortion but be in favor of something that truly can kill living things? It doesn’t have to be human to be a living creature. How do you reconcile that? And don’t give the people kill people line.

        Oh, and I am Buddhist which means by the very nature of the religion I am “pro-life” in that I do not believe in the taking of any life (unless you hunt for food). I am also “pro-choice” because I do believe there should be choices for women. Not every unwanted pregnancy ends in abortion. I also believe that morality should not be governed by a political body.

        I also question if you really did leave your pro-life beliefs at the door when you started this experiment. It is really hard to just change your mindset on this issue.

      • Allowing people to kill innocent children is inhumane. Allowing an adult to kill an innocent person is also inhumane if it can be stopped. Being pro-life and pro 2nd amendment go hand in hand. The 2nd amendment protects us from tyranny–history proves this with Russia, Germany etc.

        The problem with pro-choice is that the line of when to kill is subjective. There are those who say children up to one yr old should be able to be killed if they have disabilities not evident in the womb. Of course, without a belief in God, there is no right and wrong, so who cares, right? I believe in God though, and so that dictates a responsibility to uphold His standards, no matter how unpopular. He is the author and of life, objective.

      • woiak says:

        This question (I know I am coming into the discussion late) is more for songtothesirens. In your response, you said two things. One, you mentioned the Zimmerman trial, and two you said that you did not believe morality should be governed by a political body. But, isn’t that just what the Zimmerman trial was supposed to do – determine the morality or lack of morality of Zimmerman’s actions. If morality should not be governed by a political body, should the rules prohibiting murder, sex trade, and stealing be taken off the books? Those are all laws that are in place because our government deems those actions to be immoral. Therefore, a political body is already governing the laws of morality.

    • halftangible says:

      Oh that’s easy. See, for one thing, this isn’t always true. It is perfectly possible to be pro-life but anti-gun. Please drop the notion that in order to be liberal/conservative, you have to agree with everything your side says.

      For another, most mass shootings take place in areas where guns have been banned: schools, shipyards, etc.

      For a third, in places where concealed carry/open carry licenses have been implemented… GUN CRIME IS DOWN. Also, gun crime is down IN GENERAL anyway. Compare that to, say, Detroit or Chicago.

      Fourth: History has proven time and again that loss of the right to bear arms is when freedom starts to crumble. Tyrannies start by disarming the people. Always.

  7. Two points. Complementary I hope, but I’ll let you decide.

    One: It seems to have become a litany of liberals lately that those who believe that abortion is wrong give up on children after they’ve been born. I am not quite sure who started this particular line of reasoning. I suppose the justification for this goes on the left – we care about kids! Fetuses are not kids! Or something like that. By caring about kids, I suppose they mean free lunch programs, DCF (or whatever your state calls it) and normative training for children in day care and schools. And, maybe they have a point. But I’m not so sure. In a sense, this seems a fairly libelous accusation. You anti-abortioners only care about kids before they’re born. It’s almost as scandalous and insidious as all the pork bills passed by congress simply because you couldn’t possibly vote against something with a title like “Free the Children Act,” whether or not the act has anything to do with freedom or children. My opinion is (and this veers away from your experiment tangentially) that what we need most from Congress (and everyone else in Federal Government) is a Truth in Marketing Act. If a bill does one thing, and says it does something else… well, I hope you get the point.

    Two: This response is veering a bit, so I’ll try to be succinct. I have been thinking a lot about the issues that people of traditional faith face. The two big ones these days seem to be LGBT (an ugly acronym if ever there was one) marriage and abortion. There are a lot of others that are controversial, of course, but these are two of the BIG ONES. And I’ve been thinking. So how do we deal with this. And I thought about how the Bible explains what people of faith do in civil societies. A lot has been written about this in the past – John Locke and John Calvin come to mind – some of these discourses supported the current system (usually Monarchical – the word ‘patronage’ comes to mind) and some of these advocated for the overthrow of a given system. Both sides used scripture and natural law and all sorts of esoteric arguments to squeeze out a justification for whichever course of action the writer desired. But my thought is this. The Bible basically describes two types of societies people of faith will find themselves in… first you have Jerusalem (when it wasn’t being run by the wicked outsiders) and the other is Rome, the home of the Wicked outsiders. In all these, you could squish Bethel into the Jerusalem side, Babylon and Nineveh on the Rome side. I hope my point is plain. You have two societies. One where faith in God is an influence and one where it isn’t. And you get two responses. In Jerusalem you get prophecies – rants and ravings against kings and tyrants. And in Nineveh you get steadfastness and forbearance. You get ‘render unto Caeser.’ I think a lot of the problems Christians have dealing with today’s challenges may stem from the fact that America isn’t on the Jerusalem side of this spectrum any more. For better or worse, we’ve gone the way of Rome.

    • The difficulty lies in the fact that American is neither a monarchy, dictatorship, or utopia; it’s a democracy. This means that we have a say. I think we forget how, long ago, a few hopefuls escaped the tyranny of Britain in the name of religious freedom. We’ve been granted freedom to worship God and gather in His name. By taking a passive, or quiet, stance, we are essentially giving away that freedom. As Christians, we are instructed to follow the ruler of the land, which in our case, happens to be the Constitution, not the President. The Constitution requires that we have a say and a voice. It’s alarming how many Christians take their religious freedom for granted, or are apathetic altogether.

      • I’m not implying that we shouldn’t exercise our civil liberties. Not at all. But as Ben Franklin liked to say (I summarize) – a tyranny of the majority isn’t any better than a tyranny of the minority. And we seem to be headed toward the tyranny of the majority. Or at least that’s what the polls say. It’s more of a psychological/philosophical preconditioning that I think we might consider rethinking.

        My personal opinion, when told by friends who have abused the ‘render unto Caeser’ idea on why we shouldn’t oppose any particular policy (taxes or whatever) has been something to the effect of ‘but we are Caeser,’ or something to that effect. Conversely, to those who wish to implement (I almost used the word ‘impose’ but I think that’s a bit too charged) socialist policies (whether or not they call them that) on the basis that they are moral or something to that effect, I prefer a counter argument like – I don’t think societies are moral or amoral or immoral. The people in those societies are. Obviously your environment will have an influence. It was much easier to hate Jews when the Nazis were in power (though they didn’t have to look to far to find people who were at least suspicious of Jews). Equally so, it’s easy to pass by someone begging for a meal on the street because ‘there’s a soup kitchen or a government program.’ Both are kind of cop-outs. Maybe justifiable ones, but a bit lazy I think.

      • maralaurey says:

        If you ‘escaped the tyranny of Britain in the name of religious freedom’, do you not think that you’ve taken a wrong turning somewhere? Standing against abortion and not allowing it to become law because it goes against your religion means that you’re not giving others their religious freedom and instead are forcing your own belief that abortion is wrong onto them.

    • elessar78 says:

      Speaking to your first point, looking at the actions of the Conservatives in our national and state legislatures and the Liberals get a view that they are only concerned about the fetus and not the baby that is delivered. They’ve cut funding for education and food programs.
      Old, white men make asinine statements about a woman’s body rejecting rape and force women to be invaded by an ultrasound so that they will be discouraged from aborting the fetus. It’s demeaning and unnecessary.
      Those same Conservatives also create legislation based on one religion’s beliefs and ignore the first amendment’s stipulation that Congress shall not make any laws establishing a national religion. Having laws prohibiting a woman’s choice to end a pregnancy based on scripture smacks of establishing a national religion. I’m perfectly fine with religious people working to convince woman to avoid an abortion, but draw the line when we legislate it. And second, why not make it easier for adoption to take place? It takes a lot of money to adopt a child. Why not put legislation in place to make it easier to adopt. Actions speak louder than words and from the Pro-Choice side of things, it appears that Anti-Abortion advocates are only focused on the fetus and not the child. Finally, abortions are going to happen. They’ve happened for thousands of years. The question is, would you rather have a woman do it in a situation where she is medically safe, or resort to back alley abortions like we used to have?

      • Tani says:

        I’m not even an American but I know perfectly well what your First Amendment says. It says Congress shall not make any law ***REGARDING*** the establishment of religion. That is, Congress does not have any say whatsoever about state legislatures establishing religion as they see fit. if laws are not based on the Bible, they will be based on something worse; if laws are not derived from the Christian religion, they will be derived from some other moral and religious system, probably humanism. You Americans have used your own First Amendment to mean the absolute opposite of what was intended and to make humanism virtually the established religion of your country.

        • Sandra says:

          Tani,

          Very interesting thought… Sad but true… What a great reminder

        • revolsen says:

          What you say about the First Amendment leaving legislation concerning religion to the states has not been the case since passage of the 14th Amendment. Neither the federal government nor the governments of the several states can make laws regarding the establishment or prohibition of religion.

      • glasshill says:

        okay Humanism is NOT a bad thing. Here is the Humanistic concept of ‘Salvation’ “No concept of afterlife or spiritual liberation or salvation. Realizing ones personal potential and working for the betterment of humanity through ethical consciousness and social works are considered paramount, but from a naturalistic rather than supernatural standpoint.”

        In short Humanists believe in doing good, not for heavenly reward, not because a God tells them to, but because it is the right and good thing to do. They do it because it should be done, that’s it. You’re confusing humanists with self centered lazy jerks, which I can assure you they are not.

        As for other holy books, so many faiths are about caring for people, about taking care of our world, why on earth do you assume the Bible is the only book to base behaviour on? Buddhist principles would be marvelous to base a society on.

        Before you criticize other faith traditions please take the time to research what you are talking about.

      • Hi Revolsen, I would have replied sooner but have been sick. Thank you very much for your comment, which was most instructive (and it was nice of you not to point out that I said ‘regarding’ instead of ‘respecting’). But it really makes the force of the First Amendment even greater if neither the states nor the federal government can make laws respecting the establishment of religion or preventing the free exercise thereof. How can courts and legislatures get away with using the first amendment to stifle Christianity?

        • revolsen says:

          Sorry to hear that you were ill. I hope you are on the mend. You put your finger on a very real and complex issue. Courts protect both the right to practice religion freely and to be free of religious practice. That sounds simple enough in theory. But the devil is quite literally in the details. For example, a Jewish middle school child complains because a group of Christian youth with some very aggressive evangelism practices work tirelessly on converting him during lunch hour. If this were a public place like the mall, the Jewish child could simply walk away and to the extent he feels offended, we would reply that there is no constitutional protection against being offended. The price of free speech is sometimes having to put up with obnoxious forms of speech. But when a kid is in school (where the law requires him to be), he can’t just walk away. So if the school limits the Christian group’s evangelical activity during lunch, are they “stifling Christianity” or defending the right of the Jewish child to be free from harassment? That depends on a host of fact sensitive questions: How aggressive is the Christian group? If all they did was hand him a tract and invite him to church, perhaps limiting their activities is overkill. On the other hand, if they follow the kid around from class to class, telling him he is going to hell, that his religion is false and that he had better convert, then I think restrictive action is required. If the Christians complain that their right to practice their faith is being repressed, they need to be reminded that whatever your rights under the constitution may be, they end where someone else’s nose begins. Generally speaking, I think that courts try to adjudicate these questions fairly but, being human, they sometimes get it worng.

  8. KK says:

    While I don’t think I would ever get an abortion I don’t think it’s my place to make it illegal for someone else to make that decision. After years of struggling with infertility we got pregnant with triplets. The doctor did warn us that it would be a difficult pregnancy and that some couples choose to reduce the number of fetuses. To me that seemed like I would be aborting my own very much desired children. We went ahead with our triplet pregnancy, but sadly lost all three in the second trimester just because my body couldn’t handle all three. Knowing what I know now I’m not sure I would do the same thing if I was to get pregnant with multiples again. Is it better to sacrifice the life of one to save another? If I would have reduced one, I’d probably have two three year olds running around right now. I believe that every woman who makes the decision to abort should have at least a safe way to do so. And while I would hope I would never have to make that decision I don’t think we have the right to make it for someone else. Every situation is very complicated and extremely personal. Since it’s probably unlikely that abortions will every be outlawed no matter what we believe is right. I think it’s best to focus our energy on educating women about how they can avoid abortion in the first place. Pregnancy is 100% preventable. And it’s also very temporary. And for those who can’t afford afford a pregnancy (doctor bills, etc.) there are actually adoption agencies out there that will provide housing, meals, and medical expenses paid while you wait to deliver and then put the baby up for adoption. There are just so many options for prevention and adoption. Educate, Educate, Educate!!

    • Barbara says:

      Thank you for sharing your experience. Your question ‘Is it better to sacrifice the life of one to save another?’ reminds me of Jesus’ words, paraphrased: ‘What greater love can we have for another than to lay down our life for a friend.’ Again, thank you for your honesty and insight.

    • indibttrfly says:

      I loved what you had to say. And I fully agree with that – I’m not sure I would choose to have an abortion either, but I also don’t think we have the right to make that decision for someone else. And, as someone who is speaking from personal experience, I believe people should “listen” to your story before they judge.

  9. Barbara says:

    I am pro-life because God breathed life into human beings… I am pro-choice because God gives all human beings the freedom of choice… both are grounded in the biblical faith. I am a Christian pastor and I would never impose my convictions on another person. I encourage someone who is considering an abortion to choose life. But, when all is said and done, it is the person’s God-given right to make a choice… and I express a willingness to stand with that person regardless of the choice made… because either choice will have its repurcussions.

    • slave2christ says:

      With all due respect Pastor, As a minister myself, I find you comment perplexing at best.
      If this really is you stance, and you really intrepet our choice to deny God or as you say “our God given” right, this would mean you stand with the murder, the rapist, the adulteriess and so on?
      You can’t say that because God allows man to chose to acept Him or reject Him this means all of mans choices regardless of that choice, is ok because it’s God given. Also, keep in mind, there is a concaquence in this decision. He doesn’t just forget about it and move on.
      And although I may empathize with those who feel this is a choice they must make, it still doesn’t make it a God given choice. It makes it the persons choice. And as imperfect people all of our choices are not necessarily good choices. I agree that as a believer, we should always stand by those who are hurting because of their choices. I also believe we should always point them to a loving and forgiving God. Sin is sin no matter how we chose to dress it up. And those of us who have accepted His forgiveness for our own sins, are to comfort those with the same comfort we have been comforted with. Anyone who has had or knows somone who has had an abortion, also knows the pain and guilt that that person suffers afterward. Many have experenced sever depression that stays with them for years and even decades.
      Although I understand what this blogger wanted to acheive, as others have answered already, this is a very deep issue with those closest to it. However, as believers we must remember what Jesus said, we are the salt of the world, once we loose that salt, we are no longer good for anything. Salt preserves and we must, even with all of our falts and flaws, strive to be the salt God called us to be.
      I wish all of you involved in this conversation will deal compassionately and responsibly with all issues pertaining to sin. What is sin? Well, Jesus says, if you say you believe in me, but you don’t heed to my commands, you are like a man who builds his house on the sand, storms come and wash away its foundation. We have a foundation, that’s found in Christ words.

    • Barbara, what a beautiful response. Your flock is so lucky to have you.

  10. cepiper says:

    No doubt, this is an emotional issue and it is impossible to be in the presence of someone who has to actually deal with this issue (and not just debate it) and not hold that person’s hand and empathize with the enormity of the dilemma. My wife and I had to wrestle with such a choice 20 years ago.

    The outrage I have with the pro-abortion position, is the misinformation they give to the women who have to make this decision. They present the problem as no big deal. It’s just tissue. You will be OK. If women were properly educated about the child growing in them, then I think abortion for convenience (and make no mistake, that is what is being promoted–it’s nothing more than birth control) would diminish simply by the force of the goodness of the human heart.

    Nobody I know of on the pro-life side would ever condemn a woman for aborting under certain life-threatening situations for the mother or the baby. But the exception does not make the rule. We should be a society which promotes the protection of the innocent, even if it is inconvenient. Tough things happen; people make mistakes; there is forgiveness; there can be tears; but when a movement devotes itself to promoting ignorance, we must rise up and stand against them.

    I’m pleading with you…learn the truth about the life developing in you. Things may be tough, but there is help.

    • lcoupland says:

      Check my post at the bottom. This author is one who does condemn. I had a potentially life threatening condition, AND my baby had a terminal condition where he would never live outside of the womb. He still calls our decision selfish.

  11. “And, to be quite honest, it all narrowed down to just one thing. Me. The only reason I could possibly justify abortion was because of Me – My wants, My needs, My timing, My convenience, My mind, My body, My uterus (not really), My choice. Me.”

    You nailed it! It is centered on a worldview of ‘Me’. Boiled down to selfishness.

    This is such a touchy topic…people on both sides of the spectrum have great emotional ties to it, wether we want to admit it or not…

    To me the thing that stands out the most about a pro-choice opinion is this, “I care more about myself and what I think I need, more than my child.”(then again most pro-choice people wouldn’t all it a child or even a baby…but a fetus…or a blob of skin)

    Thank you for your honesty.

  12. In a humanistic society (where man/self is god), an abortion is no different than the pagans of old who sacrificed their children to false gods in the hopes of appeasing them. Today, if a woman is afraid that her ideal life would be harmed by the presence of a child which came helplessly from her own womb, she feels she must (or desires to) sacrifice that child on the altar of humanistic ideals (personal rights to choose what she wants) to protect her own agenda/happiness. You can justify it however you want, but abortion in the end is selfish—just like adultery, theft, traditional murder, rape, laziness, obesity, anxiety, and just about any social ill you can imagine.

  13. colegirl89 says:

    Thanks for this article. I do have one thing to so, though. In most pregnancies that result from rape, the girls usually choose to keep the baby, because they believe that it is like their “savior” and gift from God.

  14. savedbyjen says:

    Before going on an ACTS retreat in May 2013, I was a non-practicing Catholic who believed that abortion was justified in cases of rape, incest, and when the mother’s life was in danger. After coming back from my retreat, I know and believe that abortion is never ok. Adoption is a better option for these women that find themselves with an unplanned pregnancy. A woman’s right to choose should be about whether a woman chooses to have baby-makin sex or not. In cases of rape, counseling and adoption should be prescribed. ~steps off soapbox~

  15. joanna06 says:

    I liked the blog and all the comments; however, I am still Pro-Choice! I don’t come to that decision lightly, for it’s not always about Me. Everyone has their values and some values are based on regrets of said person. In my discussions about the topic of Life vs. Choice, it really boils down to if that person has serious regrets in life. I don’t mean over choosing a child or not, but life in general. If someone says, I regret this or that and they keep repeating it over and over, they will be the ones who are for Life. If one has regrets in life and they are the ones who can get past it all, they are for Choice. You can either live with anything you regret or you can choose to accept you made a bad choice and your choice has consequences, either way you made a Choice.

  16. I think it’s sad that we live in a society where that kind of decision even needs to be made. I don’t necessarily consider myself pro-life or pro-choice, but I personally hope that when I am faced with that type of decision, I would be able to choose life without any fear or regret.

  17. kevindeisher says:

    Fantastic article. I love the perspective and hope you are finding the responses you are looking for to validate your thesis. Blessings.

  18. babarahs says:

    I 100 percent believe each woman should do as she thinks best for her. I do not EVER want anyone to tell me what I should do with something so personal. Only God can judge me. Not anyone else.

  19. gospelofbarney says:

    As long as it is clearly understood the “choice,” is the termination of a life. Which in extreme cases, such as a police officer in the line of duty, to protect and preserve other lives. I served on Active duty in the Army for 6 1/2 years and two combat tours – and the Army is in the business of killing people – you can’t have any illusions about it!

  20. Victoria says:

    I am pro-life but when I saw this on your most popular posts, I decided to read it anyway since we are always told to be “open minded.” Smiles.Great post and sure to attract attention.

  21. dmayoss says:

    “Anyway, I spent the week reasoning out, like a pro-choicer would, the benefits of abortion. I considered things like population control, selective breeding, accidental pregnancies, etc.
    And, to be quite honest, it all narrowed down to just one thing. Me. The only reason I could possibly justify abortion was because of Me – My wants, My needs, My timing, My convenience, My mind, My body, My uterus (not really), My choice. Me.”

    — you were almost there. Almost. Now, go back to that point, do your best to imagine all those situations you can see of for having abortions (rape, incest, death of the mother, serious injury to both, chronic disease or handicap and so on) and then answer one question:

    Are *your* personal feelings on the matter going to be true for everyone else? Do *you* know better than everyone else what *everyone else* should be doing with their bodies? Are you willing to let somebody else tell you what *you* should do for reasons which don’t affect *them*?

    Do you, in fact, support slavery?

    • Dmayoss,

      To answer your questions respectfully, no, my personal feelings on the matter will not be true for everyone else, for everyone is entitled to their own feelings – it’s the actions that matter.

      I don’t claim to be any smarter than the average person on any topic, but there are laws – both moral and judicial – that every person ought to abide by. I don’t see anyone defending kamikaze pilots or 9/11 terrorists or suicide bombers, saying, “It’s their body, they can do what they want.” If I hold a child in my arms and jump off a cliff, I pray no one defends my actions as saying, “It was his choice, or his body.” There is an enormous difference between a woman’s body and the body inside her. If that woman were not pregnant and invoking mortal harm on herself, I would attempt to stop her, even though it’s her body. Because that’s the right thing to do.

      I do in fact, let other people tell me what to do for reasons that don’t affect them directly. My doctor tells me to exercise and not smoke – so I exercise and don’t smoke. I abide by his higher wisdom. My wife tells me not to drink because she knows my proclivity toward addiction, so I abide by her wishes out of respect for her and our marriage. Heck, my dog tells me to play with her and take her out – I do so out of love and responsibility.

      As for slavery, no I don’t think one human being ever has the right to own another human being as a slave. But we are all slaves to our ideas, and our selfish desires. The drug addicts are slaves to their addictions. The pro-choicers are slaves to their personal agenda and worldview. We are all, in essence, held captive by our bodies and their tendencies. It’s a matter of whether you are going to take mastery of it or not.

      • dmayoss says:

        “To answer your questions respectfully,”
        — always respectfully. Tone is difficult to convey, mine is as gentle as I can manage with such a touchy subject.

        “no, my personal feelings on the matter will not be true for everyone else, for everyone is entitled to their own feelings – it’s the actions that matter.”
        I hope that’s not code words for “my feelings won’t be true, but I’m still right in denying you your choice, so they are”.

        “there are laws – both moral and judicial – that every person ought to abide by”
        Moral? Prove it. This is, after all, what you’re arguing.
        Judicial? Sure – of the people, by the people, for the people. And it’s these judicial laws which makes things legal or illegal, not the moral ones. And they are laws of ethical considerations, based on factual evidence.

        “I don’t see anyone defending kamikaze pilots or 9/11 terrorists or suicide bombers, saying, “It’s their body, they can do what they want.””
        I am calm, but immensely disappointed that you would equate abortion with suicide bombing. Shame on you. It puts the lie to your entire post. It shows you where you truly stand, and makes me think your week of blithely changing your mind was a sham and an act.

        Go talk to a pregnant woman who needs an abortion. Really talk. As in shut up and listen. Sure, some will be those infuriating animals that just won’t use contraception… but do you really think women walk in to those places, divest themselves of a bloody crotch dropling and then roll back outside and spread their legs?

        I’m not sure which is more vulgar, my imagery or your opinion.

        “There is an enormous difference between a woman’s body and the body inside her.”
        Yes, the former is a fully thinking, feeling human being, a person with full legal standing. The other is not a person and (at the stages where abortion is permitted) neither thinks nor feels. And for good reason, otherwise every bloody tampon is a crime scene and every sanitary pad is an autopsy.

        “I do in fact, let other people tell me what to do for reasons that don’t affect them directly.”
        read the seven last words, and tell me where, other than in matters of law, you are coerced? Choice.

        “As for slavery, no I don’t think one human being ever has the right to own another human being as a slave.”
        Good, then we’re done. You don’t get to decide what others *must* do with their bodies and their lives, and in reciprocation, you have the same freedom.

        Look, abortion shouldn’t happen. In a perfect world, it would not. But making it illegal does not mean it doesn’t happen, it just makes it more dangerous, and less ethical. That’s not an excuse, it’s a fact. And the fact is, there are unwanted pregnancies. Some of those are from rape, some are incest, some will result in death, some will result in endless hardship for people who are already, fully here. And the cost… is a high one. But it’s not *your* decision to make, is it?

        It’s not an easy decision, it’s one that demands open and frank factual evidence to make a fully informed decision. And making an abortion *legal* does not mean that will always be the right answer for everyone.

        It’s easy, it’s really easy, to take a person and say “what if this person hadn’t been born”, but the truth of the matter is that most people, by far the countless quintillions, will never get to be born. It’s a false emotional plea to speak of someone who is here and question what it would be if they were not, because that is not in question.

        And it’s just as wrong to equate a medical procedure performed on something which is neither sentient, sapient, nor capable of independent life, nor possessing of will or intelligence, with explicit acts of targeted violence against people.

      • milesandmilesinTexas says:

        dmayoss – on original premise of post being a sham & an act – Ding! Ding! Ding! You hit that nail square on the head.

  22. Cheri L. says:

    I love that you tried to see the issue from the other side. One of the greatest challenges our society faces is the limitations of first person point of view. In our haste and fervor to convince others that ours is the correct path, we often forget (or refuse to believe) that their POV is as valid to them as ours is to us. Often, it is as valid as ours period. This refusal to see the other side and grant it veracity is the root of (dare I say it?) most of the conflicts we face today.
    It took a lot of guts to open your forum to such a controversial topic. Kudos, and thank you for following The Brass Rag. Please come back and comment often. We would live to hear from you.

  23. Interesting post…To be honest, I disagree with practically every point you’ve made. But you came across as thoughtful and measured.

    One important point though… you base your beliefs on a supernatural deity.

    What about those people who (a) do not believe in gods or (b) have a differing view of a god. In effect you are imposing your belief in a supernatural being upon others, by proxy of denying others a choice in abortion.

    Does that mean that if I believe in a supernatural being that I can try to impose my will on others based on what my deity tells me?

    In other words, basing our actions on a deity’s (supposed) wishes seems a shaky basis on which to frame our laws. (Laws such as not killing or not stealing can be viewed as human constructs for the necessary smooth existence of society and commerce.)

    Just a thought.

    Again, interesting insights on your part.

    • slave2christ says:

      He has made himself evident, but they suppress knowledge of him because of their evil ways. The laws of God are written on the heart of every man and their conscience bares witness. So that in the end no man is with excuse. God has declared the due and just penalty for their error is death.
      Man did not come up with these laws.

      The truth is without God, we would all be as in the days of Noah.
      While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
      Blessings.

  24. Raymond says:

    I remain fairly objective on the abortion issue. Mostly because as a man I think all men need to demonstrate a little caution opining on something they can never experience. This same line of thinking goes for C-sections and breast feeding. I realize that the plan is to live in a society with high moral fabric, however we need to also be cautious basing that fabric on “Christan” values. Not everyone shares the same religious beliefs and many religious based “practices” turned out to be horrific abuses – see inquisitions, witch burning, terrorism and enslavement. I believe humans take a number of expansive liberties when speaking on behalf of God.
    There may be plenty of room on the planet, but an unwanted or unloved child is being set up for a lifetime of misery (yes insert success against the odds story here). I think that the decision is a very personal one. I don’t think it is easy either – true there may be some women using abortion as birth control, but I think that is not as prevalent as pro-lifers claim. I agree that it is a “me” decision. I think it should be. Is it any less selfish to force a personal moral code on a person as it is to decide on an abortion? Making something illegal does not reduce the occurrence – see prostitution, narcotics, and prohibition. I understand that many would like to punish women for having sex before marriage and do so by insisting they have the baby. We could just consider premarital sex to be a crime. We could incarcerate men for impregnating a woman whom they weren’t married to – in that way we could share the moral responsibility of ensuring babies with both mothers and fathers…I’m thinking that legislation isn’t getting too far though…so I’ll leave the decision to the woman in that situation and stay focused on my own glass house.

  25. Heather says:

    I think that an abortion can be a choice that considers the needs of mum, dad, baby and society. I believe mothering is about being tough enough to make difficult judgment calls and own your sphere of responsibility. Since the only form of reliable contraception is abstinence and the economic conditions for raising many children don’t exist; for the issue is less about what you believe about when life begins and more about whether I could give a child a life.

    In my case, I am psych meds that would cause a fetus to be severely mutated and a pregnancy unviable. Even if I continued one (and I may want to) my health is such that me and baby would be at great risk, plus baby would inherit severe mental ill health. My partner has a genetic disorder causing agonising pain. Having had a miscarriage pre psych meds, I know what a pregnancy feels like, it does feel like a child, a person. However as a mother to an accidental pregnancy (I use two forms of contraception) I would abort. Not without emotion nor some regret, but bottom line, I would have no way to parent or take care of a baby and would be bringing into still birth, infant death or severe disability giving it little to no quality of life.

    In that situation, doing the best for that child is (in my opinion) not assuming that the power of well meaning love and aspiration is going to weigh more than the welfare of that child. The best thing in my situation, as advised my doctors, people who love me, my partner and echoed by me, would be to abort. Would I feel distressed? Yes. Does my distress or a need to prove myself unselfish means that I should bring a child into misery? No.

    Human life is sacred, but we accept murder, war, inequality in food distribution, pollution damaging farm land, drug dealing, so many things that cause widescale killing. So why is an abortion morally reprehensible but the fact that you ate dinner when several malnourished babies died at the expense of the food production involved is ok?

    The ethics of pro life exist in communities where religious traditions were formed in times when childbearing was a fact of life, not a choice. Women with few rights and no education were expected to bear as many pregnancies as they could. Around that was built a culture of ‘family life’ that bore little resemblance to old testament times. In old testament times, kids were had by any means necessary to transfer property. They had no real choices of their own but continue in tribal life and marry who was chosen for them, only to keep breeding. That was the situation with the fathers of the faith and into the New Testament, until it was decided that, with Christs coming, marriage and children should be avoided. Celibacy was the new in thing. There is no real scriptural precedent fort the family structure we have today. As ever, some Christians read scripture through the lens of their societal norms, rather than study the original texts in the language to look at the reality. Which was polygamy, getting slaves pregnant, sleeping with family, trading daughters, punishing women for getting pregnant from rapes etc, or St Paul asking people not to marry. Children existed in the bible to carry on the family line or as an unwelcome distraction from holiness. Let’s call a spade a spade!

    I have worked in child and adolescent psychology. The legacy left on a child who isn’t cared for adequately or who wasn’t ‘wanted’/bonded with/made to feel part of the family fucks them up forever. It is incredibly selfish to insist that a pregnancy ought to continue for the unborn childs rights, only to condemn them to a leave of being neglected, unloved or uncared for. Children are most often murdered, sexually and physically abused and bullied by their own family. Clearly, a mothers love is not the all conquering force we promote it to be.

  26. I am pro-choice where the law is concerned although I can never imagine myself having an abortion. I am a mom of two that I had to undergo fertility treatments to get pregnant with so you can imagine that this is a tough issue for me to remain pro choice on. I also work in healthcare which is probably the main reason I believe in choice (though I work for a faith based hospital that thankfully does not perform abortions unless the life of the mother is at serious risk).
    It is not my place to tell any woman that she has to carry a child to term. It is also not my place to tell any woman that she needs to give birth and raise for a year or two a child with terminal defects.
    For me, the biggest issue is what to do with the unwanted children if we outlaw abortion.There are not enough homes for all the children currently in foster care and up for adoption. Sure, there is a demand for healthy white babies. And I don’t know statistically how many abortions occur that involve healthy white babies (and babies that would remain healthy). But, it is much harder to find homes for babies that are born mentally and physically handicapped. I am not saying that most of the abortions done are to handicapped children. I am saying that a woman who doesn’t want her child is less likely take care of herself the way she should during her pregnancy. And if she has a substance problem she isn’t likely to quit using. A child that might have started out healthy wouldn’t necessarily be born healthy.
    I believe that all education should be given to women seeking abortions and that they should be given any options and assistance which might help them to avoid an abortion. But, in the end, I think it is a personal choice.

  27. FlaHam says:

    AdoptingJames, I am a pro-choicer, becasue I feel as a man, who isn’t pregant and who won’t become pregant, it’s not my choice if a sexual partner decides to carry the results of a sexual act full term. I feel a woman has the right to choose who the father will be, And because I feel that the sexual act is for more than procreation, I believe she has the right to determine if she wants to be a mother. Yes I also fall into the category of those that believe rape victims have that choice as well. The bottom line for me is thatI feel it’s her body, she should have the right to make these choices, without fear, or ridicule, without people screaming murderer at her, without men pointing a finger in her face and telling her she is wrong. Take care and be safe, Bill

    btw –thank you for stopping at my blog and likeing one of my current posts. again take care.

  28. shail says:

    //”I don’t believe that shooting a child who witnessed a crime is justified.”//
    I don’t either. But all the same it is a very poor analogy. A child conceived from rape is not a ‘witness’ of a crime (obviously the child wasn’t there “witnessing” when the crime was happening!), but is the ‘result’ of a crime. Just saying.
    Btw I am pro-choice.

  29. Crustal says:

    Look, what it boils down to is God already knows what a person is going to do with every baby that He places in every woman. I’m a Christian who is pro-choice for one reason and one reason only – it’s none of my business what other women choose to do with their bodies/babies. You can argue until you’re blue in the face, but if a baby is born to a Mother who won’t care for it, but won’t give it up for adoption, then who suffers that reality? If a woman has 17 abortions before she finally decides to have a baby and then is physically unable to carry a child because she chose not to have the previous babies, who suffers that reality? I have three kids, and have spent more than a decade working in ERs where women who are far too old (or in some cases far too young – sorry, but 9 is too young) to have a child, find out they are pregnant despite surgical prevention measures, and are faced with the difficult decision of having a child who will likely suffer any number of medical issues due to the age and habits of the mother prior to learning of the pregnancy. I could personally never abort a child God chose to trust in my care, but I don’t begrudge anyone else of such a decision. I trust that God knows what he’s doing with my life as well as the lives of others. Perhaps the outcome of having an abortion might bring a woman to Him…who am I to question His judgement?

  30. Jodi Lea says:

    You are a very brave man… OR.. You’re a shit disturber. I’ll need to read more of your posts to figure that out ;-)

    An FYI: There is an organization called “Birthright” (http://birthright.org/en/) that provides counseling for women with ‘problem’ pregnancies. They do not refer clients to abortion clinics, however they provide resources to help women make other choices, get counseling, prenatal care, and most of all – love and support.

    Thank you for stopping by my blog and choosing to follow. I wish you the best on your journey to parenthood!

    Jodi

  31. chowanyau says:

    I couldn ‘t go through an abortion, because to me that would be killing life. However I don’t judge other women who make that decision. I believe no potential mother makes that choice lightly or irresponsibly. If she goes down that route she must have very good reason. It would be good if she bore the foetus to full term and give the baby up for adoption as there are so many desperate childless couples. Nevertheless it is her body and her life and she has to make the ultimate decision.

    The ‘father’ may no longer be around and she is left holding the ‘baby’. I am not in her shoes so I have no right to criticize or judge. I wouldn’t like someone to judge me either. It is her choice and she has to live with that decision for the rest of her life. If she is raped and doesn’t want the child to remind her of that horrific event then I think that is better than bringing an unwanted one into the world.

    I think women have a raw deal. Men are equally responsible for the pregnancy but can wash their hands off the whole mess but women are judged for being ‘promiscuous’ and then as ‘murderers’.

  32. mattarino says:

    As an adopted child myself, I endorse this message. Well done!

  33. Rhiannon says:

    Issues with abortion goes far beyond the death of innocent life. I see unborn babies as still alive, according to the Bible Life begins at conception. according to science death occurs when the brain stops working and the heart stops beating. Take my biblical views off the table and it makes me wonder why life isn’t counted the same way as death. Core brain function begins between 4 to 6 weeks gestation, the heart beat can be found as soon as 9 weeks. For many women this is before they even know they’re pregnant. So if we go scientifically by the standards of death, the life of the child should be counted as existing by the time they’re one month along in gestation.

    Beyond that… Abortion has psychological and physical ramifications on the woman. There is always the risk of her body going into shock during the surgery. Complications after the procedure, plus I’ve read that women who have had an abortion have an increased risk of cervical and uterine cancers.

    Psychologically the scars can go deeper and may not rear their head until later. In highschool I had a friend who found herself 17 years old and pregnant. She and her boyfriend both decided they weren’t ready to be parents and she had an abortion. Four years later she and her boyfriend married, and she found she was expecting again. Life was different at that point but as her due date grew near she confided in me that she couldn’t stop thinking that had she made a different decision her first child would be starting Kindergarten. They now have 3 boys (two of which are twins), but in her heart she has 4. At some point in that subsequent pregnancy she went from having “taken care of a mistake” to dealing with guilt of killing her first child.

  34. Sandra says:

    God from the beginning gave us freedom to choose our actions. Yes, wrong choices were made in the Garden and will continue to be made until the end of time as we know it comes. Personally, for me, abortion is not an option… That is my choice.

  35. Daphne says:

    It’s interesting that you mention capital punishment, because people tend to be either pro-choice, anti-death penalty or pro-life, pro-death penalty, and when you reduce both of these things to their fundamentals, neither of these views reconcile. Life and death is such a finality, and yet we consider them differently in different contexts.

  36. HM Supit says:

    Morally I am against abortion but I would never want to take that option away from someone else (or have it taken away from me; just on principle, I’d like to be in charge of my own body, hello?). God gave us the freedom to make choices, and urged us all to have compassion for one another including, I assume, one another’s choices. Till you walk a mile in someone else’s shoes, you have no idea what they’re going through, so for those who are in a position where they decide to have an abortion, I sure wouldn’t feel comfortable judging them.

    • cepiper says:

      Apply your logic to slavery. “Morally, I am against but I would never want to take that option away from someone else (or have it taken away from me; just on principle, I’d like to be in charge of my own , hello?) God gave us the freedom to make choices, and urged us all to have compassion for one another including, I assume, one another’s choice . Till you walk a mile in someone else’s shoes, you have no idea what they’re going through, so for those who are in a position where they decide to , I sure wouldn’t feel comfortable judging them.

      If you don’t like that, just insert to and maybe you’ll feel better?

  37. Cal says:

    I work in the anesthesia field and years ago I gave anesthesia to a woman who was mentally ill and retarded. Everytime she was discharged from the mental institution, she got pregnant and or attacked others with a knife. So a decision was made to abort her fetus and tie her tubes to keep her from getting pregnant. The date of her pregnancy was wrong. It was past a late term abortion and two twin babies were delivered with beating hearts. They were thrown into a surgical basin to die. For years this experience haunted me. I wasn’t in a position to refuse the case at the time but I made it clear in my future jobs that I couldn’t be involved in late term abortions. I personally don’t believe in abortions, however, I think every woman should have the right to decide this for herself. Today almost 50% of households have children born to unwed mothers. Many don’t bother with abortions anymore. The stigma of having children out of wedlock seems to be gone. What hasn’t gone is the lower standard of living most of these families endure and the amount of money the taxpayer is shelling out in support of these families. It’s a sad dissertation on our society.

  38. cepiper says:

    (For some reason the previous post left out part of my post)

    Apply your logic to slavery. “Morally, I am against [slavery] but I would never want to take that option away from someone else (or have it taken away from me; just on principle, I’d like to be in charge of my own [right to own slaves], hello?) God gave us the freedom to make choices, and urged us all to have compassion for one another including, I assume, one another’s choice [to own slaves]. Till you walk a mile in someone else’s shoes, you have no idea what they’re going through, so for those who are in a position where they decide to [own a slave] , I sure wouldn’t feel comfortable judging them.

    If you don’t like that, just insert to [abort a baby] and maybe you’ll feel better?

  39. Rebecca says:

    First of all, thanks for the follow.It led me to your blog. You’re right, abortion is all about the person deciding to have one. It certainly couldn’t be for the unborn child, now could it. After all, there are all kinds of couples who would love that child. I read through a number of your comments. I can’t believe that anyone would compare abortion to the 2nd amendment. Really?

    My daughter just had a Down syndrome child who is the light of their lives and ours as well. Should he have been aborted? He’s a lot of work . He’s a lot of expensive. Should she just have thrown him away?

    I’m not the least bit militant in my beliefs but we are talking here about human beings who need an advocate. Whose that going to be? As far as judging someone else’s choices, this has nothing to do with judging someone but everything to do with saving someone. What ever judgement will be theirs someday is not for me to comment on one way or another. But remember there isn’t a choice we make that doesn’t have consequences.

    I would never say to someone who was consideriing abortion that I’m not going to judge them. That’s a cop out from Christians who, when it’s appropriate, shy away from their beliefs.

    Oh,dear, I’ve taken up way too much space. Thanks again for the “follow.”

  40. samyek says:

    Touch subject. I am pro choice for a multitude of reasons. I was a young teen mother, forced to drop out of college to support my unborn child. I was very naive in my concept of what it took to raise a child. My daughter’s father was and still is not around 8yrs later. In retrospect, I sacrificed a great deal to care for her and I feel guilty because A) I didn’t choose a man suitable for being her father B) I was unwed and jobless at the time and I wasn’t able to provide for her properly financially. This led to a deep depression, and in a way regret. Some women have that forsight when they become pregnant and see abortion as a viable option. Abortion is NEVER an easy decision, it’s painful and people can be very judgmental. I made my life 100x harder by having a baby and not being mature enough emotionally and financially. Fortunately, I have a support system (kinda) but many young women don’t.

  41. I’m pro-life and believe abortion is murder. But I find it interesting that the words “abortion” and “adoption” are so similar. The letters that differ are B & R and D & P. The way I see it, abortion is a “brief reprieve” from a pregnancy, but adoption is a choice that will bring “deep-down peace.” Once you make that choice to have an adoption, you may briefly feel better, but you have the rest of your life to live with the consequences of killing your child. But if you choose adoption for your baby, you can find a peace deep in your heart that you have given your child a chance at a good life.
    One of my granddaughters is a consequence of rape. Her mother had a hard time for a year or so before she accepted the baby, giving her the same love as her other two children (also born without the benefit of a husband). But now that we’ve come to know little Quinny, everybody loves her—especially her mother. Quinny’s mother has had a rough time for many years but I think she is finally on the mend, but if she would have chosen abortion I fear that her chances at a long-term happiness would have been pretty sketchy.

  42. Dota says:

    The arguments for Abortion are obnoxious and entirely solipsistic. Women who make the argument “It’s my body!” are simply unaware that actions have consequences. It is not morally justifiable to separate one’s actions from their consequences; for this would lead to the suppression of free will.

    When one lives in society, one’s body is not wholly owned by oneself, and cannot be. One must surrender ownership of one’s body (in a moral sense and not a literal one) to society as the body is the vehicle of action that affects everybody.

    Western/Christian morality is worth fighting for.

  43. I think it’s disingenuous to perform such a simplistic thought experiment. Abortion is a complex issue, and when you break down its only justification to selfishness, you do a disservice to every conflicted parent who’s ever made the choice. I assure you, NO ONE has an abortion for fun.

  44. MacKenzie says:

    What about if the mother’s body started to shut down because she couldn’t hold anything down. This same woman has a few children already on this earth that need her. Her husband needs her. She is literately dying because she is pregnant; her body is starving itself in order to feed the baby. Her doctor is pro-life and refuses to help her other than a lengthy stay in the hospital with IV fluids and then sends her home. Oh yeah, he want to take out her gallbladder which has nothing to do with the reason that she is dying! No problems before with the gallbladder. Nor since. If she doesn’t get an abortion, her husband will be a widower and her children (oldest is 8) will be motherless in a matter of a month or less. Is it selfish for her to consider an abortion?

    This particular woman lost her baby due to the baby’s body shutting down when the mother’s body was shutting down. The baby couldn’t recover even though the mother’s body had started to slowly recover. But I was just wondering if in your mind it’s selfish of this woman to put her living family above herself and her wishes to keep the child she is now carrying and sacrifice not only her life, but the life of the baby she is now carrying.

    Mac

    • lcoupland says:

      Wondering why this one hasn’t gotten a reply? Because you don’t know how to argue against it?

      • Well, they are creating a false dilemma – which is a logical fallacy. They are advocating for abortion because they believe/think the mother will die without it and leave her husband and other children. There is no way to know for sure what the outcome will be. They could both survive. We aren’t God and therefore don’t know the future. Or one or both could die, but either way, we don’t have the right to play God and decide who lives and who dies.

        The husband and other children are not more important than the unborn child. They are all created by God. We live in a fallen world, and death is a part of it – mothers and wives die. Murder is murder. Whether or not we think we have a good reason for it.

  45. MacKenzie says:

    By the Way the woman in the post above is and always has been Pro-Life. She believes that abortion should be outlawed for birth control reasons. However, she also has always known that there are certain situations that are medical that abortion should be allowed. She just never expected to live through one such situation.

  46. revolsen says:

    I am a Christian minister who also practiced law for almost two decades. So I look at this question from a couple of perspectives. Putting aside the “hard cases,” I don’t need to be convinced that aborting a fetus is the destruction of human life. Within the Christian community every measure should be take to welcome and support expectant mothers in all circumstances offering them assistance and support also in raising their children. But the United States is not the Christian community and criminal law is a blunt instrument for acheiving justice and offering protection. I can think of all kind of reasons why criminalizing abortion is a bad idea and not just the old saw about driving women to dangerous back ally operations (though that is a real concern). We learned from National Prohibition that you don’t solve problems by passing laws against them. That lesson is being repeated through the so called War on Drugs which has filled our prisons with inmates who do not pose a threat to society but cost us a bundle to maintain. The War on Drugs has also turned the Mexican border lands into a war zone and, worst of all, our drug problem is as severe as ever. What I would like to hear from those who favor criminalizing abortion is how you would go about it; what sort of legislation would you pass; who would bear criminal liability; would abortion still be available for woman to whom pregnancy poses a threat to health? If so, how severe would the threat need to be? Who makes that decision? Is it good enough just to get a doctor’s note? Should a court decide? Peter A. Olsen

  47. annsechrist says:

    Well said! It ultimately comes down to selfishness. The abortion debate is not so much a matter of educating the public on the humanity of the unborn. It’s increasingly a matter of convincing our generation not to be selfish. They all know he or she is a baby, but they don’t know that they shouldn’t deny that baby its life.

  48. scribblegurl says:

    Respectfully, you did not look at abortion as someone who is pro-choice, because you’re not actually pro-choice. I laud you for making the effort, but you left things out of the process. For one, you failed to take into consideration when a pro-choice person might feel life begins. Until a fertilized egg becomes an embryo, it’s still just a fertilized egg. It has the capacity for life, but isn’t a life. Or maybe it is, depending on what you think a soul is and where it comes from. But you don’t get to decide that for someone else, you can only decide it for yourself. Someone who doesn’t believe in the afterlife will obviously feel very differently on that than you will. There are also other, emotional reasons for opting to have an abortion which may or may not be viewed as selfish by someone other than the person making the decision. That doesn’t make them correct decisions, but you are in no position to judge them as selfish – you aren’t the person who has to make that decision for herself. It’s easy to write people who have had abortions off as selfish. It’s easy to demonize them, even among those of us who are pro-choice. But life isn’t cut & dried or black and white, and frankly, you can’t ever know what’s going on in someone else’s head – even if you lived the same life as she, you aren’t her. You don’t have her fears, doubts, pain, coping skills. I agree that having an abortion is, more often than not, a move designed to make life easier or better or less painful for the pregnant woman. But that doesn’t necessarily make the decision a selfish one. It comes down more often than not to motivation and spiritual belief. And you can’t know what that is for a stranger or control it in others. You can only look to yourself and try to give honest, selfless advice and support when your counsel is sought.

  49. pokokitty says:

    I appreciate your article. I am not sure if when you are pro-life you can truly see from a pro-choice angle. I myself am pro-choice, though, personally I could not abort a child. I made that choice early after seeing a documentary on abortion seen from different times in recent history. It wasn’t so much on the philosophical or theorectical opionion on when life began but on how the pregnancy, and ultimate abortion, affected the mum. I was appalled at the back ally butchers and the type of “potions” given to women to cause the abortion that would ultimately cause their own death. I am a nurse, I know the science of what a embyo looks like at each stage. I don’t know when the “soul” enters or when “life” begins. For me it begins when the embyo embeds, my own opinion. However, I can’t dictate anyone to else. I have stood at womens bedsides at all stages as an OB and surgery nurse when there has been a miscarriage or stillbirth. I know what those look like. I worked in a hospital in Cali that did 2nd trimester abortions. Worst travel assignment of my life. It was grusome, I will not share details. If anyone made me believe there should not be abortions that would be it. I didn’t have to actively participate, just document, thank goodness, but I can say it was the worst professional experience of my life. I still have problems with that, and I don’t work in nursing anymore. It made the decision to have my Down Syndrome child that much easier. I was asked if I wanted to abort her at almost 19 weeks. I could feel her kicking for a few weeks by then. There was no way, how could I? Then I thought back to those women. How hard a choice was it for them? They had to have felt there babies moving? I try to remember I was not in their shoes. Most of these women were uneducated and living in poverty. Drug addicted and on there multiple abortion after multiple pregnancy. But I still wonder, was it a hard choice, did they feel backed in a corner with 7 kids at home and a drug problem? Who knows, Thats just one scenerio and the reason I stay prochoice, otherwise, we wouldn’t just loose the infant, we would also loose the mother.

  50. One good thing about abortion: democrats are all for it.

  51. kristy mapp says:

    Not sure if any of your commenters – pro-life or pro-choice – have ever actually been through an abortion. I think your thought processes were right on the money. When I was 19 I got pregnant and at first was going to keep the baby. My boyfriend and I were well off, and there was no issue except we weren’t married. After about a month I decided that I really didn’t want to put my body through that, and I couldn’t see raising a child out of wedlock. So – I had an abortion – and yes, it was just because I was selfish. At 24 I had a 1 night stand and again became pregnant. This time I hardly knew the guy and didn’t want to raise a child without a father. Also, I didn’t like the climate of the world and that actually was one of the determining factors for me – I didn’t want my child to grow up in this horrible world. Selfish. There’s no other reason for it. It was all about me, and nothing else. Though I thought about it constantly, these things never bothered me until my heart was ripped out and replaced with one that now understands sin. I have a hard time with this subject because I have been there, and killed 2 children, and now I will live with it the rest of my life. I find it saddening that there are so many pro-choice people out there who have never dealt with it themselves, and yet would practically die for the cause of killing. One thing I know: you can’t change someone’s heart. Only God can do that, and the more we pursue arguments over people that will never change unless God changes them, the more we are asking for revolt against our beliefs. It is my desire that what we, as Christians, put out into the world be purposeful and to the point. Let’s stop asking the world what they think and start telling them what God thinks. The only way they will ever change is by hearing or reading the Word.

    “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation.” – Ephesians 1:13

  52. What about the child being raised by a mother who resents it and hates it’s existence every day? Is that the kind of life you would wish on a child? A life with unconditional love for a person who will never return it? Wouldn’t it be better to have that pure and innocent soul be in heaven with it’s “creator” where it deserves to be or to be re-created as someone else’s child (if you believe in reincarnation)? Why would you let a pure and innocent soul suffer with cruelty and unhappiness? Maybe sometimes abortion is less cruel than the life the child could have ended up with. Would you like a crack-whore for a mother?

    • revolsen says:

      Well, I have met plenty of wonderful, happy and fulfilled people who have come out of wretched and loveless homes. I have also met plenty of people who came from loving and supportive homes who managed to ruin their lives anyway. Point is, life is too full of unpredictable turns to judge its worth before it even gets started. Furthermore, I don’t like the idea of deciding whether someone else’s life is worth living. That’s all relative. Donald Trump might look at my pedestrain middle class life and remark, “My God! I could not stand to live like that!” He’s entitled to his opinion, of course. But I hope he does not try to do me the kindness of putting me out of my misery. I have grown rather fond of my life, shabby and unglamourous as it may be.

  53. “an abortion simply cannot be seen as anything short of murder – especially in the eyes of God”

    This right here is why so-called “Christian” anti-abortion advocates are impossible to reason with — either you haven’t read your Bible, or you’re ignoring the parts that you don’t like.

    The Bible never once prohibits abortion, despite the fact that it was widely practiced at the time of its writing. Pennyroyal and silphium were readily available and sold as abortifacients well before the writing of the New Testament. We can’t pretend the authors were ignorant of the issue, so we have to assume that they didn’t see it as spiritually relevant.

    More importantly, the Old Testament DOES specifically weigh in on the matter. Exodus 21 gives the specific penalty for homicide as death or exile, and then a few versus later lists the penalty for wounding a pregnant woman such that she miscarries as a fine set by a judge.

    So as a matter of fact, abortion in the eyes of God — or at least the writers who professed to be speaking on his behalf — is not just implicitly but explicitly short of murder. It is very specifically defined as a separate concept.

    But I guess y’all know better than the writers of the Bible. Which is fine, as long as you’re willing to admit that you’re making your own rules up to fit your social beliefs, and that it doesn’t have much to do with the Bible. Would you be willing to do that, please? If not, I think you maybe owe your readers an apology, a clarification, and a change of your position to be more in line with scriptural teaching.

    • slave2christ says:

      Correction to your statement regarding how a pregnant woman loosing her baby was handled by the law.
      Verse 23 is clear about the punishment of one who caused a pregnant woman to loose her baby.
      My desire would be that this sheds a new perspective on your idea of how this case would be resolved, however I have found that once someone has set their heart and mind against something, the facts are of little or no value to them.

      Exo 21:22    “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, BUT there is no harm, (to the child) the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine.

      Exo 21:23 But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,

      And hurt a woman with child – As a posterity among the Jews was among the peculiar promises of their covenant, and as every man had some reason to think that the Messiah should spring from his family, therefore any injury done to a woman with child, by which the fruit of her womb might be destroyed, was considered a very heavy offense; and as the crime was committed principally against the husband, the degree of punishment was left to his discretion.

      But if the child had been fully formed, and was killed by this means, or the woman lost her life in consequence, then the punishment was as in other cases of murder – the person was put to death; Exo 21:23

      Php 3:2  Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh.
      Php 3:18  For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ.
      Php 3:19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.

      Php 4:8  Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.
      Blessings,

  54. tinabrenee says:

    What an excellent post! I k ow this statement is extremely controversial or maybe it just scares someone to death to think such s tho g but even in the case of tape, the child has 1/2 the mothers blood so how or why should the child’s goodness and potential be nullified or canceled out?

  55. "Beth" says:

    “Benefits” to abortion? I just don’t think of it that way, and I’m pro-choice. NOBODY is “pro-abortion.” Nobody I’ve ever met. Is it interesting that you think you could “think through” this as a pro-choicer, just because you said you wanted to. I don’t think that thinking really works like that…to be able to set aside your assumptions like that. I have no way of even identifying my assumptions outside of a dialog (which implies an “other.”) Interesting post though!! There is a failure rate of birth-control to consider and factor in, which is my understanding of the context of MOST abortion scenarios. Again, I’m talking statistics, not anomolous extremes. It is unfortunately for women with unwanted pregnancies that the left and the right base their rhetorical devices on the fundamentalism of extreme cases, e.g. the pregnant teen in her second trimester, the rape survivor. I have never met a sane Pro-Choicer who felt that population control was an ethical consideration. Nope. Just never seen that anywhere (though I hear about it from the right.) Funny, rhetoric. Don’t you think? Tricky tricks and some s.

  56. I want to hear more – go deeper. There’s much more to say on this topic. And thanks for following me on Cold :)

  57. phenweb says:

    Pro-Choice, Pro-Life, Christian Humanist these are all generalist labels. Not all Christians are pro-life and not all pro-choice humans are humanists. For choice and abortion may include the rape case but also the mother in danger due to baby deformity or still birth. Abortive procedures are used in these cases. What about an IVF procedure that reduces the number of embryos so that viable numbers survive. Is that abortion as well?

    Then there is the father’s input if the father is around and what about society’s role in supporting a very badly handicapped child that wasn’t aborted. Remember that support may have to last long after the death of the parents. This is not a plea for aborting handicapped children just another consideration that a prospective mother has to think about.

    Advances in medical science mean that many children are born now that nature did not intend to survive, this includes interventions during pregnancy and childbirth. There are cases now of sub-25 week premature babies surviving and the UK’s abortion limit is currently 25 weeks, but the law has not been amended.

    As a male I have never had to carry a child, (although I have children) no male can know what that feels like. Most priests, vicars and reverends are male but they feel they can pronounce on all sorts of women’s issues not just abortion. Consequently, I have never had to make that choice whether it’s legal or not. In the UK when abortion was illegal there were multiple deaths of young women who wanted illegal abortions. What would the pro-life people say then or to the women who committed suicide to avoid the stigma (mostly religious moral indignation) of unwanted pregnancy?

  58. kellyfbarr says:

    I like this post. As a matter of fact, I like your blog and wish you and your wife all of the best in your foster care and the adventure to adopt your first son. I also thank you for visiting and becoming a follower of my blog. My husband and I have three adopted sons, all adopted through foster-to-adopt. We are Christians, as well, and we homeschool our children (our oldest has already graduated).

    I just wanted to mention that I used to think the issue of rape was the only acceptable reason for abortion. Then I met two people who were conceived in rape and whose mothers chose to go through the entire pregnancy, and then, decided to raise the child anyway. That is a huge commitment and sacrifice, I am sure. I can’t imagine how traumatic a rape is, but I believe that if these two mothers could go through the entire pregnancy and raise the child, then anyone who is raped could at least go through the pregnancy and allow someone, who really wants a child and is unable to conceive, to adopt the baby.

  59. Pingback: Victory Through Tragedy | adoptingjames

  60. I know you say your experiment was unsuccessful, but I think you succeeded in something that almost everyone (from all sides of an issue) forgets to do, which is to truly listen and try to understand where others are coming from. I am, for lack of a better word, pro-life, and it is very important to me to make sure to not dismiss someone’s views without listening first. I personally have had much better conversations with people this way. Abortion is a heated topic, it’s a personal one, people are more likely to discuss things civilly if we all try to see the other’s point. Even when we don’t agree with it, so I truly commend you for sincerely trying to see the other side.

  61. gaustin00 says:

    James
    Thanks for this blog, you are so right, it is all about “me” and not about the baby. I know a gal who was raped and carried her baby full term This child is now in his 4th yr at West Point. If ever there was a story that showed that these children are special it is this one! There is no justifiable reason to abort a child…and that is what they miss…it is truly a child with a soul.
    Keep up the good work…and thanks for stopping by my blog.
    G.

    • I hear of this case more and more. It’s astounding and I thank God for the brave women who chose to go through with the pregnancy.

    • I’ve never understood the idea of abortion being OK in the cases of rape. Whenever I hear this, the question I want to ask is…Is the life of a child conceived in rape any less valuable than the life of a child not conceived in rape? The answer is a resounding no. Some argue that the trauma on a woman pregnant with a rapist’s child is much too great. I have a tremendous amount of compassion towards women who go through a rape and those who then get pregnant. It is because of this compassion that I’m pro-life in these and other circumstances. When a woman is raped, she goes through a tremendous amount of trauma. A pregnancy adds to the trauma. Having an abortion adds to the trauma already there…both physically and emotionally. There are counselors and doctors and resources to help with both the trauma of the rape and the pregnancy. What is important is directing these women to these resources and being there for them during a very difficult time. And there is also adoption if the woman cannot handle or does not want to handle the responsibility of raising the child.

      There’s a group out there called “Feminists for Life”. They have some wonderful resources that can probably explain things better than I can. Google them. They present the pro-life arguments in all these cases in a very compassionate and non-judging way.

      I’m reading a book called “The Unburdened Heart” by Suzie Eller. It’s a wonderful book about forgiveness and the healing from all sorts of trauma. These author, a wonderful Christian woman, and her book has touched the lives of many people around the world. She has a ministry that has been very, very helpful for many people dealing with difficult situations.

      Suzie Eller was conceived from rape. And she has blessed me through her work in many, many ways.

  62. paleface31 says:

    Agree. Opinions are just that, opinions. You speak fact. It’s almost a forgotten art.

  63. Pingback: Life After Abortion | adoptingjames

  64. gtrudelle says:

    I would identify as pro-choice as I believe women should have the right to choose. But I don’t think that’s the same thing as being “pro-abortion” since that seems to imply that all pregnancies should be terminated (or at least that’s how it comes across to me). And I believe that there should be support systems in place for whatever women choose to do in this situation whether they end the pregnancy or not, as it is undoubtedly an extremely difficult decision to make either way. Compassion, not judgement, should be the first response. We should try to extend the same grace to others that God gives to us.

    What’s more, we tend to think of abortion strictly in terms of how it is in the West. Women worldwide come to this from a variety of different economic, social, and cultural backgrounds -all of which influence how they view their bodies and pregnancy. So a woman in the US might decide that an abortion is right in her circumstances for completely different reasons than a woman in, say, Southeast Asia.

    I think it’s also worth noting that no two experiences are the same and people identify as pro-choice or pro-life for various reasons. Its a subject with a lot of ambiguities and a diversity of perspectives, all worth considering in my opinion.

  65. glasshill says:

    I was in a situation 20years ago where abortion was one of my options. I have always felt strongly that it was a choice and then I sat down to seriously consider mine. What I found out about myself is that I could never abort a life inside of me. That was my core belief. Here’s the rub. My personal CHOICE was LIFE, I could never presume to make this decision for another woman. I have known friends who made the decision to abort, in every instance it was a heartbreaking and fully considered decision. To imply that women who make this choice are selfish is lazy and unexamined thinking, it villianizes women who have had to make complicated and life changing decisions. I think the biggest mistake people make on each side of this debate is to simplify and pigeon-hole the thinking and actions of those who do not think as they do. I think we could all benefit from treating each other as humans to be respected and not as opponents to be diminished and ridiculed.

  66. I applaud you for attempting to examine the works through a different lens, but here’s why you provably didn’t succeed in actually changing any of your beliefs: you were not thinking like a Prochoicer. You were thinking like an anti-choicer thinks a Prochoicer would think. Prochoicers don’t really advocate the ‘benefits’ of abortion. Instead, we talk about the benefits of choice. And Prochoice is not synonymous with proabortion. Prochoice means supporting all choices women make around their reproductive health – including giving birth, adoption, abortion, birth control.

    So aside from the fact that someone who is Prochoice is advocating choice and not the benefits of abortion, the reasons you attempted to assume for why someone supports access to abortion were also a little skewed. Someone who is Prochoice isn’t supporting population control or selective breeding. It is about supporting reproductive choice. If a woman finds herself accidentally pregnant and wants an abortion, she should have access to a safe and legal abortion. It’s really about supporting bodily autonomy. So it was an interesting thought experiment, but you maintained your prolife framework while trying on this new way of thinking.

    • glasshill says:

      nicely said. pro-choice is just that, choice.

    • Tani says:

      I’m sure there is some validity in what you’re saying, and I don’t think I could really look at the issue from the other side. But when people say that pro-choice means pro-abortion, there is some validity in that, too. A majority of women who have had abortions bitterly regret it and most feel that they were pressured into it. Often that pressure comes from those who were supposedly involved in offering them a ‘choice’ – counselors and medical professionals, for instance. Many doctors today put strong pressure on mothers and fathers to abort children with Down’s syndrome and some other conditions. What is that if not selective breeding? So in many circumstances, such people are pro-abortion, not pro-choice.

      • Michael says:

        Where are you getting your “facts” that women are being pressured into abortions? Please cite relevant details.

  67. dreamwriterx says:

    Many doctors argue that since a fetal heartbeat can be detected at 12 weeks, the fetus should be treated as a living human being. Some evidence suggests that they can feel pain and react to feelings and sensations.

    However, 70,000 women world-wide die each year from back-street abortions. (A report from the Guardian)

    Do government abortion facilities save lives?

    http://dreamwriterx.wordpress.com/2013/07/17/abortion-write-or-rong-2/

    Peace Out,
    Dreamwriter X

  68. I agree with many commenters who state that you are likely oversimplifying a complicated topic. That said, you hit the nail on the head when you said that it comes down to “me”. Of course, we are all exceedingly guilty of this sin. I’ve come to realize that the only selfless acts we are capable of is those we commit by accident.

  69. Andrew you do indeed have a unique way of getting your message across and God’s Truth, I feel very blessed thankful that I can say you are part of God’s family and my Brother in The Lord or is it a Son as I’m an older woman, anyway I respect you and your stand for the Lord.

    To save on wordage, as some don’t appreciate this, I will leave you my Link on Abortion, it will give you understanding of my focus as does the rest of my Blog but please forgive my mistakes as I’m Dyslectic.

    Mommy Please Love Me – http://freedomborn.wordpress.com/2011/11/25/mommy-please-love-me/#respond

    Christian Love from both of us – Anne

  70. ganeshputtu says:

    how about genetic abnormalities? when you anticipate that the fetus is not a healthy one but has genetic diseases, say for instance mental retardation, would you still say that the child should be born and the parents have to take care of their “special needs child” all through their lives? or just let this go and try again? i would like to hear your views on this “hyposthetical” situation

    • This is still a “me” circumstance. Yes, it’s unfortunate when genetic abnormalities affect a newborn. And honestly, to be totally and completely gut-wrenchingly honest, a part of me wants to give in to allowing abortion in these cases. In fact, for a long time I actually advocated abortion for these circumstances. But the thing is, I am to operate under God’s law, not my own. And operating under His law means that I acknowledge that He is the giver and taker of life – not man. If someone is born with a disability or abnormality, then there is a reason God has allowed that person to come to full-term and live. I may not like the fact that He has given that child’s parents the responsibility – and burden – of raising that child. In fact, I don’t approve of it of my own, weak, fleshly accord. But He is my God and I know better than to question His ways and His reasons for things. You bring up a great point, and it is difficult for me to answer, and I may even extend my thoughts (and struggles) with this topic in a future blog post. If you will allow a quick analogy – God makes it clear that we are not to steal. As much as I want to keep that extra $20 bill that was erroneously handed to me by the cashier, I am still obligated to obey God in that circumstance and give the money back.

    • pokokitty says:

      look, i am prochoice to an extent. though not for the reasons most people are. i only believe in it up to 12 wks and only after that in the cases of medical necessity for the mother’s well being or rape or incest. Myself, personally, i am prolife. genectic abnormalities. where do you draw the line? who says what the value of that child’s life is? my child has down syndrome. should i have aborted her? yes she has more needs then a ‘normal’ child. but she is a loving, breathing, thinking, emotional human. She may be delayed but she has the chance to live a productive life with the right care and loving attitude. my life would be so much less without her. it is so wrong to just throw away these children for a ‘genetic abnormality’. is it a challenge sometimes? yes. but i would never give her up. this really isn’t ‘hypothetical’, people reallly do this and it saddens me. i wouldn’t agree to abortion at all except that mothers will find a way to do it anyway, regardless of law, by backyard butchers, and end up in our ER’s septic from the rusty instruments and unsterile conditons. This is what happened in the past, and will happen again. illegal meds that make the woman abort, finding the under developed infant wrapped and thrown away in the trash, just happened around my neighborhood recently. so, i don’t agree personally with abortion, and especially not for a genetic abnormality, i will remain prochoice to protect at least one of the two lives.

    • Tani says:

      “Just let this go”??? Murdering your own child is “just letting go” ???

  71. I genuinely do not think we can even approach the abortion issue until we resolve euthanasia. While sentient humans are not even allowed to decide to terminate their own lives, we are no where near able to decide the ethics of terminating the lives of non-sentient humans. That, in my opinion, is the reason each mother’s must remain the determinant.

  72. cho wan yau says:

    ahem how do u know the foetus is non-sentient? But you raise a v imp point about euthanasia. I am sure my dad would opt for it if it was legal in the uk. It would release him from all the suffering and be merciful and humane rather than prolonging his life with no quality.

    It is time we had a serious debate.

  73. Teige Roe says:

    I often hear that Christians are supposed to be devoid of reasoning skills? Blindly following their faith? Holding on to their “silly religion”. Clearly this blogger doesn’t fit the mold. Interesting, thought provoking, and talented blogging in my opinion. Hear, hear!

  74. DevonTexas says:

    I just wanted to say, thanks, for your posting! It was good reading and informative about a difficult subject like “prolife” versus “prochoice”. Frankly, I see the “prolife” and not so much in favor of life as “anti-choice” primarily because to be “prolifers” you can’t be in favor of the death penalty which is hardly pro life and many pro-lifers are pro-death penalty.

    Having an abortion is a very personal issue for women. Every woman should have the choice of whether or not she has a child. That’s where “choice” comes in. I don’t favor abortions. I would never have one, nor would I force a woman NOT to have one. Again, it’s a personal decision a woman must make for all the reasons she might have. I won’t go into what conditions some one might consider an abortion. That doesn’t matter.

    Every woman has a right to make her own choice. The Rowe v. Wade decision by the Supreme Court was based on privacy. The government and people don’t have a say in the very personal decision a woman makes to have or not have an abortion or a child. If they do, then women are less free than all other citizens by virtue of their childbearing capability and that’s not what Equality means. The SCOTUS decision wasn’t pro-abortion, it was pro-privacy and. therefore, pro-choice. Women should be Free to make the decision to have or not to have a child. If we legislate abortion, we can legislate child bearing. If we can prevent abortions legally, we are requiring women to have children. It’s that simple.

  75. cho wan yau says:

    Sorry james but you can’t impose what you believe, that is God, which nobody has proven yet actually exists, on others on an issue which affects their life to such an extent. That would make you a dictator. Anyway you are a man, you are not the one left holding the baby or have the foetus grow inside you and having to make that gut wrenching decision. It is her body, her life, her choice. No woman is blase about aborting the life within them and often suffer guilt for years to come.

    It is more responsible to abort than resent and abuse the child.

  76. sunsetdreamer says:

    I am pro life. I am a Christian. I don’t see past murder because I CANT see past murder… It’s wrong and disgusting. If it’s not a baby, you’re not pregnant.

  77. JOanna Tan says:

    There’s really nothing great in abortion. Abortion is murder. You can call it anything else but nothing will change the fact that it’s still murder. The act of killing an unborn human is murder and as far as I’m concerned, abortion is totally against God’s laws and a sin in God’s eyes.

    • revolsen says:

      No. Murder is homocide and homocide is the killing of a human person. Under our constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court, a fetus is not a person. That’s not my opinion, it’s fact. Now, you might not like that and you might wish that it were otherwise. You might rightly argue that destruction of a human fetus constitutes an immoral act. But under the current state of the law it is not murder. This seems to be a recurring problem with this entire conversation. Too few of you seem to understand that the question: “What should a disciple of Jesus do?” is not the same as “What conduct should the U.S. Govcernment prohibit by law?”

      Let’s state the obvious. Nobody on any side thinks having to have an abortion is a good thing. At best, it is an invasive procedure that, like every medical procedure, involves a degree of risk and is inconvenient. At worst, it raises serious moral questions. But I think every sane person agrees that the world would be a better place with fewer abortions. So now the question is: How do you achieve that? If you start from that point rather than bickering endlessly over the moral gravity of abortion I think you might actually end up generating some productive dialague. But, saddly, and as our current political climate demonstrates, we prefer name calling, labeling and mud slinging to careful, thoughtful and collaberative problem solving.

      • JOanna Tan says:

        Abortion is the unlawful taking of someone’s life.
        Even though the laws in the country might make abortion legal.
        The unborn is a human. So aborting the unborn is killing a human = murder. I cannot see it another way.
        The unborn is worthy of the same protection as the living.
        God made each and every one of us, beginning in the womb. Who are we to destroy, to get rid of someone that God has fearfully and wonderfully made?
        “Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction.” Proverbs 31:8

        • revolsen says:

          “The unborn is worthy of the same protection as the living.” I would seriously be interested to know how you would like to see unborn life protected. Should abortion be a crime? If so, who should we prosecute? The woman? The doctor/practiioner? Would you alow exceptions where pregnency endagers the life of the mother? If so, who decides when the danger is great enough to warrant an exception? Do we need a court to decide or is a doctor’s opinion good enough? And to what extent should the law reach into a woman’s life to protect the unborn? Can a judge order a woman to take medication deemed beneficial to the health of the child? Should pregnant women be arrested for smoking, drinking or using their bodies in any way that might harm the fetus? If we ever do amend the constitution to deem a fetus a person under the law, I propose we name it “The Lawyer’s Full Employmenbt Act.” It will accomplish at least that much. :)

          • JOanna Tan says:

            1. Why do you say the fetus isn’t a human?
            2. If the fetus isn’t a human, what is it?
            3. If the fetus isn’t a human, the woman isn’t pregnant right?

            Please answer my questions.

            “Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction.” Proverbs 31:8

            • revolsen says:

              I don’t believe I said that the fetus isn’t human. I said that the fetus is not a “person” as defined by the U.S. Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court. Again, that is not my opinion. It’s fact. Now, the law can be changed or re-interpreted to extend the rights of a “person” as defined by the constitution to fetuses. But if that is what you are proposing (and I am not sure that you are), then you have a truck load of very difficult questions on your plate such as those I posed in my last response. I hope you find this responsive.

      • Tani says:

        What determines fact – what God says or what the US Supreme Court says? Or is the Supreme Court God? This is certainly a recurring problem in the conversation and the reason for that is not a misunderstanding but the fact that people don’t agree on who makes the rules.

  78. mikieb7 says:

    Hi James, thanks for following me. I loved what you wrote. I seen your point from every view and I especially loved what you wrote about how, we shouldn’t shoot a child for witnessing a crime so we shouldnt kill a baby because of rape. I just recently had my scare of a 4th child two nights ago. I have 2 kids, 11yearold boy and 5yearoldgirl, my wife has 1 5yearoldboy. My kids are here everyday until I take them to their mothers at 630. My wifes son is here everyday. So with the scare of my wife not starting her period, I found myself being tempted by the devil with thoughts I had never thought of before. We can barely afford 3 kids, we didnt know about a 4th one, and a baby at that! All in all the thoughts did not remain long. I mean, even though I want to finish our house so my kids can have their own rooms, even though Id like to get a new car, even though Id love to have money to get everything my kids need now, even though, there are so many needs my family has, how could I or anyone who is merely human, have the right, to take a child’s life away? God is the creator of life! And I had to calm down and just remember that if I put my faith in God that everything would be okay and that whatever he chooses for me would be better than what I could choose. I could rant about this all day, but I’m not. Its my offday and Im trying to finish up my second book. But I wanna say two things. Its devilesh things like abortions that take away our faith in God. If we could go back and rely on him instead of ourselves, this world would be in a better place. The second thing I have never understood is this. I work in a Nursing and Rehabilitation home. When we think someone is about to die or is dead, the first thing we do is guess what? We check their pulse. You know, to see if they have a heartbeat. This action alone determines what we should do next. Now here is my problem, how do people fight for life by determining someones heartbeat, but fight for the death of a child that does-have-a-heartbeat? You hear what I’m saying? The babies inside the mamas, I believe have a heartbeat when they are 18 days in! 18 days! Yet doctors sit back and let them hear that same heartbeat that we all try to save in hospitals, and let that person decide rather or not they killed. Think about it! It doesnt make sense! Oh, after I prayed that God would lead me not into temptation and to allow me to follow him and worry not, I found out it was a false alarm. Anyways, thanks for following me, hope you like what I write, And I love your stuff! May God bless you and continue to show you the way!

  79. scubamom says:

    Leaving religion out. Leaving cause of pregnancy out. The fetus (unborn young in the uterus), is a living being. To make the choice to take that life, at any stage of pregnancy, is in fact choosing to murder(to kill or destroy) a person. Just because they have not taken a breath, said their first words, or contributed to society, does not give any person the right to kill.
    Personally, I have been faced with the “choice” to terminate(end with finality) two of my three pregnancies due to an “increased chance” that they may have been born with Down’s Syndrome. While the struggles of dealing with a special needs child would have been great, my “choice” was that there was none. This was my child and whatever obstacles I was given, I would face them, prepared. I delivered two very healthy, very normal, beautiful children. I would have murdered two completely normal children because there was a chance that they might not have been.

    I agree 100% that the choice to abort a baby is a selfish one. But I also feel that you shouldn’t have sex until you are married. Sex(not rape) is a selfish choice to pleasure or give pleasure. If you can’t deal with the outcome, then you shouldn’t do it.

    As far as rape is concerned, that was a crime against the woman and perpetrated by the man. The child is not at fault. If you do not want it, there are plenty of families that are not able to conceive that would/could give it a loving home. To choose not to carry it for the reminder of the crime, is a selfish act.
    If there are life threatening reasons why a woman could not carry a child, then that is also her choice. One she will make with a heavy heart, and for some, a sacrificial choice to give their lives for the child.
    Too many variables come into play when you discuss rights and choices. You may have the right to choose what is done to your body, but does that child not deserve the right to choose what is done to them. In making a choice to abort, you are taking away the child’s choice and right to life.

    • Cebuana C.A. says:

      Good response. I share a lot of your views, as a female and Christian. I have witnessed as a ten year old an aborted baby found by my parents from a garbage can. She was so small that she fit inside a carton box which we brought to the hospital. When I migrated to the first world country Australia, I am shocked to hear how many of them don’t mind if those unwanted babies are out of the way, without weighing in some serious thoughts on it. And legalizing abortion because it makes the practice safer? Safe or unsafe, it is still an inhumane act. Perhaps being in their sheltered homes for their whole life makes them want to escape any form of responsibility. It was sickening already for a ten year old to find how the premature baby looked like she was robbed from her protection, it is even disturbing to hear from those who haven’t experienced it themselves.

      Unfortunately, they don’t see what’s inside them that would constitute as a human being. But if they find that whales are getting killed by hunters, they’d react as if their lives are threatened by it. This world is so confused. Seriously, how far valuable are we as humans?

  80. Plain and simple here: Abortion is not just a woman’s issue. Unplanned pregnancy is not just a women’s issue. Birth control is not just a women’s issue. So why, then, are the women the ones paying the price? Why don’t more men take more control of birth control? Why are women shamed for unplanned pregnancies but not men? And, most importantly of all, why are so many men not supporting the children that they have?

    Pro-life or pro-choice: I don’t care what you are. The point I’m making is that women don’t get pregnant by themselves. Where are the discussions of men’s role in abortion and unplanned pregnancy? Why does the brunt of the burden fall on the women?

    There is so much wrong with the world, and there is so much poverty and so many children without the resources to succeed. I wish that the pro-lifers and pro-choicers would take a fraction of the energy they use condemning and justifying abortion and transfer it over to children in low-income areas. Volunteer at an afterschool program. Help children struggling to read. Donate a portion of your income to that family down the street whose parents were laid-off. Mentor a high school student. Help a middle school girl who can’t afford to go to the dentist.

    Buck up, everyone! I don’t care what your beliefs are. Just, for God’s sake, put your money where your mouth is. Single parenting is HARD (I know; I was one.) If you want to condemn abortion, do so. But please, please, please, push for generous federal spending that targets single parents and low-income children. Push for better schools in impoverished areas. Push for better medical care for pregnant women and low-income children.

    Pro-lifers or pro-choicers, rally and argue all you want. Basically, I’m sick of both sides. I simply wish that people would exert the same generosity of love they feel toward the unborn children and surrounding issues as when those very children, and mothers, are older and struggling. An eight-year-old poor child is not as cute or endearing as a small baby, but he/she needs your help and love and financial support just as much, if not more.

    • I love the passion in your comment here, Cinthia. I love the pain and the heart that comes across. And I agree – why aren’t more men held responsible? When and why did we ever make abortion a woman’s issue? But I say we take it a step beyond federal funding for single parents… but I don’t quite know what that next step would be. But whatever it is, starts at home. Parents need to teach their kids commitment and sacrificial love. That is no longer being modeled in our homes anymore, which is why so many “men” feel justified or okay with leaving their families. This is problem that reaches much farther than we can imagine. And it all begins with the home. The family unit.

  81. Michael says:

    @Revolsen, Adding on to your comments, Nor is a fetus under 24 weeks viable outside the womb. It can’t be a person because it would not be able to survive.

  82. I am pro – choice and although I myself would choose not to (I’m in the same position as the author and desperately wanted a child. I think that this discussion whilst interesting and thought provoking seems to be centred on a middle class American experience. The facts – In round figures there are 44 million pregnancies terminated annually. In 2012 half of these were unsafe abortions. Unsafe abortions increased by 44% in 1967 to 49% in 2012. Deaths of the woman from these unsafe abortion decreased from 69,000 in 1967 to 47,000 in 2012.
    Of these 47,000 deaths only 19 deaths were in high income countries.
    112,000 abortions were prevented by contraception.
    Making abortion illegal only leads to an increase in unsafe abortion. Therefore pro choice is the only way to go. Why? It is a human right and unsafe abortion is a major health problem. In Africa 97% of abortions are unsafe and in South America 95%. These statistics (World Health Organisation burden of disease study) clearly show that the majority of abortions are performed in the developing world. I wouldn’t even hazard to guess why a woman in Sub-Saharan Africa undergoes an unsafe abortion but I’ll bet it isn’t because of “me” and even if it is IT IS HER CHOICE.
    ps thanks for following my blog or I would have missed this incredibly great discussion. Am now following you – I would have loved to adopt or foster and will follow your journey with interest.

  83. beingdeb1 says:

    Despite legislation, religion, and public opinion our lives are about choice. You can legislate behavior and medical procedures all you like. People will choose for themselves. God is not thwarted by our actions. If God wants a being to enter the world, that being will enter the world, through one who chooses to be the conduit.

  84. renogalsays says:

    The title of your post immediately grabbed my attention, and to be honest, I was afraid to read it at all. But, I’m so glad I did. You are a very insightful individual. Well done!

  85. Pingback: Legislating Morality | Eastern Catholic Convert

  86. ~L says:

    I was raped by a very very awful man and it was his purpose to get me pregnant. He was stalking me and it was sick! Awful! My husband was grossed out with me that I was pregnant with a ‘rappest baby’…. Not only was I dealing with the emotional stress I would have had to stop my medicine which would have truly put me over the edge. I was 7 weeks pregnant and I love children… It was hard but I don’t regret it.

  87. Wow, you picked an explosive subject. From a medical standpoint, there are a few reasons an abortion would be necessary. Doing one because it is inconvenient for you to be pregnant is not an acceptable reason. That baby has a heartbeat in 28 days. With the new technology today, you can find out by 5 days if you’re pregnant. Being raped and wanting an abortion is somewhat different; while there are psychological issues to consider, I would still not encourage an abortion. Even though it may not have a heartbeat for a month, during that time the cells are very much alive and growing into a human.
    As a nurse, I talked with a number of women who had abortions and regretted it. Years later, they were asking themselves why; wondering what their child would have looked like or become. Some had botched abortions and could never have children even when they wanted them.
    For those of you who think the baby is not sentient, I saw a video of the infant trying to get away from sharp tools used to prod and pull him apart. The baby is torn asunder and pulled out piece by piece. I always thought they delivered the baby whole until I saw that. Try to get that image out of your head. It might make you think twice about an abortion.
    Children are a precious gift. Yes, I am a born-again Christian. You can always have your tubes tied or even a hysterectomy if you find childbirth and children repulsive. Adoption is another route; have the baby and give it up for adoption. People in the US are having to go to China and Russia for children.
    There’s always the choice of not having sex. In one southern state, I was surprised by the number of 14 & 15 year olds having babies. I thought they considered sex an indoor sport until a co-worker told me that most of them are raped by their dads, uncles, and older brothers. One dad even told her that his daughter had to learn about sex and it might as well be by him. I guess he never heard of video or even just a simple explanation.
    Those same men went to church and professed to be ‘Christians’. Just because someone calls themselves a christian does not mean that they are. People think they are a christian because they go to church. A true Christian is one that has accepted Christ as their savior and is endeavoring to lead a Christ-based life. Watch their actions, language, and life-style. Christians are allowed to be wealthy. We can be funny, frivolous, and the other extreme dead somber and serious. We make mistakes, but we have a forgiving God. I have never claimed to be perfect. I will admit that knowing God as my savior, having him as my adopted Father, has been the best thing ever to happen to me. I highly recommend it. He is the only one you can be assured will never desert you. He always listens, and is a steady rock.

    • Cebuana C.A. says:

      I like your response the best. When I was ten years old, my family and I brought a dumped, aborted baby from the garbage in a mall to a hospital. I remembered so vividly how the girl (who we called Jasmine) cried without being able to make a sound. I felt squeamish looking at her fit inside a small carton box, like she looked like a bloodied doll. I came from a third world country where contraceptives are not very accessible to the public, so a lot of these women, who I believe to be from those working overseas as domestic helpers and came back, had been raped by their foreigner employers and didn’t know what to do with their situation. Poverty played a big role in forcing these women to do this. Still, after she died a week after, we never blamed the mother for her actions, but it did cement my views early on with human life and how much they are valuable to God.

  88. I was anti-abortion for most of my life, even participated in a March for Life on the anniversary of Roe v, Wade on freezing January. What made me do a 180 and become completely pro choice was not Me. It was seeing my daughters become teenagers. And as parents are wont to do, you start seeing things through them. I did not want any law, any government, any man telling them what they couldn’t do with their own bodies.

    After I started seeing it through their eyes, it was easy to see it through others, such as incredibly poor young girls who don’t know the facts of life and who go to a school that teaches abstinence only and the boy who got her pregnant is not going to marry her, ’cause when do they ever?, and so the cycle of poverty continues.

    Very nice post. And to the people who think abortion is murder, no, it’s not. It’s a federally protected, constitutionally approved right. Murder is illegal and people (some people) get prosecuted or it.

  89. Abby says:

    Interesting post. I appreciate the lack of hysteria on this hot button topic, but I wanted to address a couple of additional aspects: As a man, I don’t think it’s possible for you to truly understand the ability to have life grow inside you. It is an amazing thing, but terrifying as well. A man with a phallus also isn’t going to understand the violence of being invaded intimately. When something born of such violence and hatred spawns a growth inside you, the emotional implications for a woman could fill books. Additionally, everything the mother is feeling, is passed to the child developing, whether emotional or chemical.
    It has nothing to do with religion or overpopulation, or religious values. It has to do with a woman who is fighting for her life, whether it’s from rape or not. Because we have the ability as a species to produce so many children, I think it’s the right of any woman to decide whether a child- a new life- is something she individually can produce in a healthy way.
    Also, try this: Imagine if you will, a doctor telling you that the medications you’ve been taking to deal with the trauma of rape, have been mutating the life within you into a flipper baby? Or that your medical complications mean you have a slim chance of surviving the pregnancy anyway. There are a zillion scenarios, different for each woman. Honestly, it’s so frustrating to see a bunch of controlling religious men intrude on such a personal, agonizing decision. I doubt any woman takes it lightly. Aside from the horrific physical procedure, the emotional implications and grief are profound and life long. Made worse, I might add, by people passing aggressive judgement.

  90. dilloncruz72 says:

    As a permaculturist, I will respectfully disagree with the assessment that we’re far from over-populating the planet. Nothing I have read or studied suggests that we’re an underpopulated planet. Space does not equate to the ability to feed, house and provide water.

  91. Hi, I thought I’d weigh in with my opinion as pro-choice.
    To start with, no one I’ve ever met who is also pro-choice has used the overpopulation argument. Though it is interesting to note that in countries where women have less control over their sexuality and bodies (i.e. India, Africa), poverty and overpopulation follow. I would imagine this would be similar in poorer areas in other wealthier nations, and I know it is certainly the case in Australia, where I’m from.
    My other two points concern the only reason you could come up with an what seems to me to be the most common reason for the anti-abortion movement.
    You suggest that the ‘me’ argument is all that’s left and since you move on I’m assuming you didn’t think it was a strong enough argument. I would suggest that ‘me’ would be an entirely valid argument. Saying that a person’s needs don’t matter, and they have no right to decide what they do with their own body seems like an unfair statement to say the least. Up until the baby can survive on it’s own, it is me, if you see what I mean.
    Also I have to disagree with your statement that abortion is murder. As I see it, until a baby is capable of surviving outside of a woman’s body, it’s not an autonomous being. It is in fact part of the woman’s body, and as such she can make her choices about what she wants to do with her body.
    Finally, if you really want to protect lives and be a light in this world, support the teaching of sexual health to young people so they don’t get stuck with unwanted pregnancies. Support organisations that help families who are in poverty, and enable women to hold down good jobs so that they can support more mouths. In particular, don’t judge women who have to make that choice. It is never taken lightly, and people who oppose those making those decisions only make it harder.
    For further reasons you could try this link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/abortion/mother/for_1.shtml

  92. I do appreciate your attempt to consider another viewpoint though.

  93. You are absolutely right. In your words it is all about me, and if it’s not the right time for me to be a parent the child will suffer. Simple as that. Being a parent is a lifetime commitment. It’s not something to be entered into lightly. If a woman finds she is not supported emotionally, physically or in whatever way she needs to be supported in order to be a healthy, happy human being then it is good for her to have a choice to not bring someone else into that situation. Every child deserves to be wanted. If it’s not all about me enough, if I don’t get my own oxygen mask on first, I’m not going to be of any use to anyone else.

    There is no welfare, no food stamps, no system that can make it ok, if you are alone and no one wants you life is hard. Abortion might not be the perfect solution but at this point it is what we have after birth control fails. If you were a woman and you knew how it felt to find out one night of warmth and comfort is translating into a lifetime of taking care of a child born from a man who cares nothing about you, and wants nothing to do with your child…well then I’d hear you out. But frankly you standing there with your penis judging things you don’t understand simply makes me want to puke. I’m not interested in your opinion, and I won’t really hear your viewpoint. You sound like an ass. But I am aware that you are free to feel how you like, and express yourself in public regardless. I just hope no one who ever had to kill their unborn child because they knew they couldn’t feed it reads your crappy blog. I’d hate to think you are making people suffer. That just wouldn’t be Christian.

  94. “But, even as a pro-choicer, I don’t believe that shooting a child who witnessed a crime is justified. So logically, I cannot believe that taking the life of a baby that was conceived by rape is bringing justice to anyone. ”

    What in the world gave you the impression that was the logic behind it? Aborting a rape conception has NOTHING to do with justice or revenge, and everything to do with not continually victimizing the woman by forcing her to carry her rapist’s child to term (to raise herself OR give up, either of which could have huge emotional implications.)

    I also have to agree with one of the above posters… Until men are in danger of having to carry a child conceived when THEY are raped, I really don’t want to hear them try to legislate for women on the subject.

    BTW, thanks for stopping by. When I got the email notification, this article just caught my eye, It wasn’t my intention to stop by and blast you, but I would hate to let you continue to operate under the belief that women who are raped abort their babies because they want “revenge.” Did you know there are still many states that allow rapists to sue their victims for parental rights??? Is it any wonder a woman would not want to carry a rape pregnancy to term?

  95. Bill Parker says:

    “Let me stop right there. Allow me to elaborate on this one. Christians are the first group to stand up against abortion at all costs, right? And Christians maintain that, according to the Bible, this world is full of evil and the days are only going to get darker. Most Christians also believe that all babies and children before a certain age go to Heaven. You would think that Christians would be okay with abortions – but we are not – because an abortion simply cannot be seen as anything short of murder – especially in the eyes of God. Christians are to be a light in dark places and stand up against such evil acts. So those who think they are saving a child from an evil world by killing him are only contributing to the darkness that we are trying to fight.”

    Why would anyone take up an invitation to have a discussion with a writer who thinks THAT paragraph makes sense? What you’ve basically said is: “you’d think we’d think this is okay, because a and b and c. But we don’t! Because it’s bad. Very, very bad. Moving on.” There’s no “why” there, or anywhere in this post. And I’m a Christian — this isn’t some sort of don’t-rely-on-your-God thing. It’s just that you’ve got NOTHING there, at all, Biblical or otherwise. You’re right because you say you’re right. Which tells me that you hold the positions you hold because you’ve always held them, and makes me wonder what would happen if you ever *really* did what you pretended to do here.

    I’m here because you followed my blog — which is apparently a thing you do indiscriminately, since pretty much everything I’ve ever posted is diametrically opposed to everything you have — and this was a suggested post in the little message. And it’s disgusting. Exactly the opposite of what it purports to be — entirely myopic and closed-minded, making up ridiculous positions for the other side rather than engaging in any real discussion. You can’t set parameters that completely close off any possibility of a reasonable two-sided discussion, then invite people to engage you in a discussion. It just doesn’t work that way.

    But then there’s this: “Although the issue of how many rapes result in pregnancy is highly debated.” No, no, it’s not. Rapes result in pregnancy at the same rate consensual sex results in pregnancy. There is no debate there; there are people who acknowledge the truth and people who are insane.

  96. Thank you for following my blog. I wish you well with your adoption/fostering plans. I am glad my son was not aborted. He is the joy of our life and was always that way when we adopted him18 years ago. I will now follow your blog because you have some very interesting perspectives as a Christian and they are non-threatening to those folks who do not follow our faith and beliefs.

  97. Randomname says:

    Jae,
    By “overjoyed to adopt any unwanted child” does this include babies who are the product of two drug addicts perhaps with AIDS or other incurable disease, who will genetically have a real low IQ, and add some severe birth defect or two to the mix….

    I would bet the above condition would not be the preferred baby to adopt (that being the selfish reason this blog points out)… Then consider the unselfish reason for aborting such child…the child’s perspective on the world. If any person against abortion can say they would be “overjoyed” to live a life similar to that child, I call BS.

    I would further argue that there are not plenty of parents willing to adopt ANY baby. Some cant afford the health related bills that would be involved. While I have not researched before posting this, I will go out on a limb and assume there are plenty of babies that end up not getting adopted and live their lives in foster homes (as a friend of mine did, being raped and abused in most families she was placed in.) I further assume most antiabortion people have lived nice, comfortable lives with loving (Christian) parents.

    I personally would loved to have been aborted so tax payers would not have had to raise me and my siblings while my “Christian” mother was off having sex out of wedlock with different men all the time.

    All I am saying is it is not “selfish” to consider the “future” life of every unaborted child.

    Sometimes I wonder what Christians would think about abortion if Judas’ mother wanted to abort him but was told she had no choice.

  98. b00kreader says:

    Well 166 was too many comments for me to read, so this may have already been covered. However, you asked for opinions so I thought I would add my own. I was born and raised Christian (Catholic) and I am pro-choice. I believe that birth control, morning after pills, and abortions should all be legal I do however see some glaring possibility for miss use. I do not think these options should be entered into lightly. However, if rape, incest, or threat to mother/child’s life is absolute then abortion should be an option. My opinion take it for what you will.

    Sorry I also have to disagree with you on humans over populating the world. That has already happened. While there may still be uninhabited locations from a natural resource stand point alone we are looking at that line in the sand through our review mirror.

    Good for you for at least attempting to see the world differently, never stop trying because that is how people grow.

  99. Diana Hernandez says:

    I thought your opinions were very clear, but I still sensed a bit of bias in your argument. There are several reasons why a woman may want to have an abortion. I detest when politicians try to place women into groups: rape victims, teenagers, etc. Some women may not be in the right emotional condition to raise a child, or they may not find themselves financially stable to start a family, or perhaps the child was conceived in a heinous act like rape or incest. Choosing to get an abortion can be an easy decision for some women, and complex and heart wrenching for others. Whatever the case may be, it’s a decision that belongs to that woman, and not for anyone else.

    In other words, mind your business and let women do as they please. Unless you can solve every issue that stops a woman from having an abortion to begin with, like poverty, depression, etc., don’t speak on the subject.

  100. Haha, it may have been tongue-in-cheek but I think you still managed to hit on quite a few important issues related to this topic. I’ve been rolling an idea around in my head for a while now about liberal and conservative thought when it comes to living with the consequences of our actions. Broadly speaking, liberals believe we should be able to change our mind and/or mitigate negative consequences after making poor choices, while conservatives believe we should be left to live with and learn from our actions (particularly if the mitigation process negatively impacts someone else). This also explains why liberals frequently come across as more compassionate and understanding to those in need, while conservatives can sometimes be perceived as insensitive and heartless. Maybe someday I’ll get around to writing a blog post about it, but in the meantime thanks for sharing. I look forward to reading what else you have to say.

    -Victor
    http://www.beyondthestereotype.com

    • I’m a strong conservative, but your words do hold truth… Please send me the link when you get around to writing that post.

      • Haha, I had a feeling that might be the case. I trend a bit more centrist myself, but find intelligent, respectful political and religious dialog fascinating. I’ll be sure to shoot a link your way. Thanks for the reply.

        -Victor

  101. A friend of mine suggested a book for me to read and I’m passing it along for your consideration: “The Righteous Mind; Why good people are divided by politics and religion”. If any of you seriously want to understand the other side’s position as opposed to “winning” then you may find it challenging. Rather than bolstering a particular sides presupposed moral superiority, the author questions where and how our versions of morality originate. For those who consider themselves “Christian” the book of Job is instructive because none of the righteous, religiously observant, devout men in the story had a clue as to the mind of God. They had the rules down pretty good but once they began to extrapolate from them the nuances of what God thought they went straight into the ditch, beating their chests on behalf of God’s honor all the way down. We’re all human and self righteousness is our Achilles Heel. This book is a behavioral psychologist’s investigation into why people believe the ways that they do and specifically why, regardless of our beliefs, we all feel morally justified in our positions.

  102. It’s a difficult topic and one that is never black & white as typically portrayed. I have had 3 relatives that needed abortions. One was forced to give birth to an already dead fetus, another had what appeared to be a living fetus, but was a “mole fetus” (something I’d never heard of), and another was pregnant due to birth control that scarred organs and caused them to almost bleed to death. Yes, I’ve known other women who had abortions and women who are firmly against it, but none of them ever wants to chose for the other & the issues that brought the women to that choice were not easy or convenient. No one “wants” an abortion, you will never hear groups of people hoping for it. It is discussed in hushed whispers like racist jokes are told. These women were dealing with many issues, and thinking of the impact on everything and everyone, including and especially the unwanted or unplanned child, because they would be perceived as ‘the problem’. Try as we might, women are blamed for getting pregnant, for not thinking ahead, and are expected to resolve the issue on their own most of the time. Yes, there are support groups, but not every woman has time to go thru months of therapy before deciding what path she will take and not every child is born into a loving home or one with support. All families don’t “come around” or find resources or overcome their difficulties. So, until we stop blaming women and men and look with respect at the real causes, and understand that we cannot remove our own bias from ourselves, how can we begin to respectfully dialog over different issues. It’s easy to judge or expect certain decisions when we don’t have to live with the consequences of the choices. Thanks for writing on this topic.

  103. Dear Adoptingjames,

    As in all matters, there rarely is a black side or a white side only and we usually end up with a grey in-between side. So this is my question:: Is it possible to be pro-choice and pro-life at the same time? I will explain myself.

    I am definitely pro-life as I respect all forms of life, sentient and insentient, Life is love and love is the ground, reason and goal of existence. In humans and animals the will to live is the strongest instinct and the base of our many drives. To celebrate life is to embrace our humanity and become more humane. As compassionate and empathetic beings it can be unbearable to witness harm or death inflicted on another being, and this includes humans, animals, trees and the environment. So when it comes to the destruction of a future baby, our heart breaks with sadness first and then anger perhaps. But in spite of feeling these emotions, do I have the right to impose my ideas, my beliefs, my code of ethics and my laws on someone who does not share my sensibility? Can my respect for life over ride my respect for the free will of an individual?

    Because women are the ones making the final decision, society has always naturally put the blame on them. By treating them as second rate human beings incapable of making decisions on their own, society has historically decided for them by banning abortion and worse yet, by making them feel guilty of becoming pregnant in the first place, But where are the men? What part of responsibility and blame do they have? Half, perhaps?

    Precisely, because an unwanted pregnancy is most of the time the responsibility of the woman, should’nt we support her compassionately and respectfully instead of telling her what to do or not to do? To have an abortion is never an easy decision and many women who have gone through it have never forgetten it This is the time for family, community and institutions to support these women, whatever the outcome is, a support based on understanding, kindness and love, a love much needed at such a difficult time. The role of a counsellor,or elder could be crucial at this point, someone compassionate and impartial who could talk to the woman, specially if she is young, about the gift of carrying a new life, the blessedness of the femenine body while at the same time giving her the space and respect she deserves as an independent human being who, regardless of the decision, will have to deal with the consequences of her choice.

  104. Thank you for following my blog, “She Talks With God”. I am a woman of deep faith and found my way to this post because of it’s title.

    Indeed, I am pro-choice, much as I respect others’ choices of spirituality, religion, what to eat, etc. My favorite irreverent phrase is “if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.”
    Very tongue in cheek, yet very much understanding the roles for women and men regarding bringing life into the world.

    I also work professionally as one who works with families to create the family they want. Parents and children, I work with them. The life skills I try to instill are: Personal Care, Respect for Self/Others, Responsibility for self, Organization, Communication and Values. I pray regularly that these skills lead people to make great choices.

    God’s love always,

    Melissa Pazen
    http://www.melissapazen.com

    Live Inspired: think boldly; love unconditionally; behave respectfully; act deliberately, kindly, justly, mercifully and humbly; forgive easily; live authentically; laugh frequently!

  105. Pingback: Here’s the Great Thing About Abortion « jmarkphilip

  106. MR Traska says:

    Let’s set the whole abortion issue aside for a moment so I can get you to focus on one thing: you looked at images from Google Earth and decided we’re not overcrowded and not taxing the resources of the planet. Seriously??? THAT’s your rational for not beliving in overpopulation? Clearly, you’re not an agricultural economist or agronomer, or you’d know exacly how much of the earth’s surface **isn’t** arable land. All those emplty spaces you see are empty for a reason. I suggest you seriously check out statistics from the Worldwatch Institute, the U.N., any number of organizations that have a far better understanding of this than you do — because you apparently know NOTHING about the stresses on the earth. Wise up, dude. We can’t afford your ignorance.

    • If you read most of the comments from pro-choicers on here, they say that overpopulation is hardly ever, if ever, an argument they use to back up their position. Thank you for your input and proving them wrong. :)

  107. Levi Thetford says:

    Great post, and I believe every thing that you have posted. “All about me” is the attitude at the center of about every individual, and national sin. The only good thing that will ever come out of abortion is that when Christians do enter Heaven it will be populated with millions of aborted babies. I am reminded of Genesis 50:20. “You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive”.NASB

  108. MTJames says:

    I found the following statement definitive: “Christians are to be a light in dark places and stand up against such evil acts. So those who think they are saving a child from an evil world by killing him are only contributing to the darkness that we are trying to fight.”

    Such a stand must be preceded by love, as pure outrage can so easily become bitterness, which completely negates our message. Name-calling and character assassination are the enemy’s tactics, and they are doomed to failure, so we must be careful how we stand against evil. LET YOUR LIGHT SO SHINE BEFORE MEN THAT THEY MAY SEE YOUR GOOD WORKS AND GLORIFY YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN. (Matthew 5:16)

    BTW: Thanks for following my blog. That brought me here to see your good work. Keep it up.

  109. Pingback: Legislating Morality | Kathy Holmes, Author

  110. Heartafire says:

    I have never had an abortion and would have to walk a mile in the shoes of the unfortunate soul who has this option to consider. Have you walked a mile? Judge not.

  111. We are called to love, no matter what the sin. (Very hard at times, I know.) I have relationships with many people who have had them, and they are the only ones who have to deal with the consequential emotions after. Not us. Therefore, all we can do it be a light in that dark time for them without judging, or forcing our opinion. (Fine lines) It is their choice. Every sin is equal, so you overeating, and them killing their baby are equal in God’s eyes.

  112. lcoupland says:

    I had an abortion. A late abortion. A married, mother of a two year old who had struggled with infertility, our baby was very, very wanted and loved. I suffered through 3 months with HG (helpher.org) 3 hospitalizations, the insertion of a potentially dangerous PICC line to keep my hydrated and daily IV fluids. I was on complete bedrest, and couldn’t take care of my son. I lost 30lbs in under 2 and a half months. But it was all worth it, because we were going to have another baby, and our son would get to be a brother.

    Then at 18w, the doctor though he might see something wrong with our baby’s brain. That the ventricles holding fluid may have been a little enlarged. A week later they weren’t a little enlarged. They had grown to 3 times the normal size. There was almost no brain tissue left visible as it was being crushed by the pressure from the fluid. Additionally he had a cyst in the back of his brain that had mostly prevented the cerebellum from forming, and was crushing what little had formed. We were told that even if the damage stopped right then, he would never breathe on his own. Our baby was going to die. It was the most devastating day of our lives.

    I had a choice. I could try to carry to term, still too sick to take care of myself or my family, losing dangerous amounts of weight, at very real risk of infection from the PICC line that was keeping me hydrated and alive. I could have a feeding tube that we had been discussing implanted surgically to maintain my body. There was a good chance that our son would not make it to term, but if he did, his head would be so enlarged that I would require a repeat cesarean, with the risks that go along with major abdominal surgery. And then he would die. He would suffocate, or live a short while on life support feeling only pain.

    Or, I could induce labor, deliver my son naturally. Hold his lifeless body and say goodbye. That is what we chose. All of the risks to my health are now gone. I can get out of bed, eat and drink without tubes. I can play with my living son. My choice wasn’t a selfish one. I would have given up everything for another living child. I was giving up everything.

    I’m not sure why you chose to follow my blog about missing my dead son, given these circumstances. It led me to this post, and that just seems cruel.

    • I did not in any way intend to cause offense. For that, I am truly, truly sorry. I don’t at all mean to belittle the experience of women who feel they have a choice to make. But that is the beauty of the Bible vs. the world. The world presents us with all sorts of options which leaves plenty of room for regrets and second-guessing on our part. But the Bible makes very clear what we are and are not to do, leaving no room for second-guessing or regrets. Followers of Jesus know where we stand and, though not everything is in black-and-white, we at least have a guideline to weigh our decisions against.

      Your choice may not have been a selfish one on the outset, but it was in the sense that you believed you had a choice to begin with. I know those are very hard words to hear and it sounds extremely harsh, and I do not, in any way, intend to rub salt on a wound. But not until we give our hearts and our lives over to Jesus will these things make any sense to us, and we can see clearly what it is that is veiled from the world.

      “Then you will experience God’s peace, which exceeds anything we can understand. His peace will guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus.” Philippians 4:7

      My thoughts and prayers are with you. Your circumstance is no small matter. Your emotions and your heart and your feelings are a big deal in the eyes of God, who wants nothing more than for you to accept Him and understand His good and perfect ways which He laid out when we were just a thought in His mind.

      • lcoupland says:

        I thought you said you were trying to understand with an open mind. This is not open. I ask again, why are you following my blog? Are you trying to be cruel? Did you do it so that I would see this post?

  113. Anni says:

    I believe that there enough unwanted children in world already. If abortion decreases this number, that is a good thing.

    • Which takes the issue a step further: Abortion isn’t the solution to unwanted children. Unplanned pregnancies is. So now fornication, and abusive and irresponsible men becomes the issue here.

  114. alstolco says:

    I think a baby being born and living to suffer in this life can be worse that having it’s life ended very early on. We can’t know what physical or emotional awareness it has at that stage, but awareness seems to develop as it grows so hopefully this limits any suffering it might experience. Living on earth involves suffering and bringing a person into this world means responsibility for their happiness and well being, which unfortunately we cannot always guarantee. So unless the baby is wanted and will be protected and loved by someone and given good chances in it’s life it should not be born if it will suffer. People see abortion as murder ( which is actually what happens to the feotus or baby) and wrong because it’s the taking of a life, the prevention of it’s chance to exist. But when existance will definitely involve suffering for the baby, then preventing existance seems to me a viable option. The baby’s needs and quality of life should be paramount before the needs of the prospective parents, but that’s a hard one.

    • cepiper says:

      Glad you weren’t my parent. With that set of values, you might feel justified in sterilizing entire third world countries. Scary.

      • alstolco says:

        That’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. Can’t see what’s wrong with the values of wanting quality of life, protection, happiness and love for babies and wanting to avoid causing them suffering. Forcing sterilization on anyone is not a concept that even entered my head. Unlike you. Scary.

        • cepiper says:

          I merely noted the natural consequences of your philosophy. A world in which it would be OK to murder an unborn baby because somebody thinks that child won’t have a good life is what’s scary. My opinion is that it is more humane to advocate birth control and adoption, rather than abortion.

          • alstolco says:

            Yes I agree, you are right, of course it is better to advocate birth control and adoption rather than abortion. But a world in which it is OK to murder an unborn baby? It already exists, we live in it, and it is scary. I can’t condone forced sterilization on anyone, I don’t know why you said that bit.

  115. cepiper says:

    You said you wanted to “prevent existence,” and that for some it would be better NOT to be born than to live in this world. It reminded me of what Job says when he is utterly depressed, and I think we all feel that way sometimes, but should we commit suicide?

    I didn’t mean to put words in your mouth, but the big questions about euthanasia, abortion, population control, etc. need to be answered by our generation, and I don’t believe poverty should even be on the list. Where we draw the line (and should we even draw a line) is a thorny ethical issue. I fear for my daughters and the kind of world they will inherit from us, but abortion shouldn’t be something we promote as a way to circumvent suffering. None of us, sadly, are exempt from suffering in this life, rich and poor. I apologize to you that I overstated my opinion.

  116. alstolco says:

    It’s ok, I understand what you mean and I agree. All life involves suffering none of us are exempt. I meant prevent existance if living would be worse.Lesser of two evils if you see what I mean. But yes, I would advocate birth control and adoption every time. Everyone will have their own views, people have different religious beliefs and different cultural values. Sometimes it’s very hard to accept some of them when they are very different from our own. But we’re all earthlings, if you see what I mean. And I too fear for my sons, and any grand children I might have. This world is escalating into a scary era.

  117. Pingback: New things I learned about abortion | Getting Started

  118. frankiegoestocollege says:

    I feel that as long as the individual making a choice is making a responsible choice, the actions are somewhat acceptable. Something else that is incredibly controversial among Christians is gay marriage. Now I was raised in a very liberal family, while my fiancé hails from some of the most conservative Catholics I know. His fathers view on gay marriage: as long as they share love and respect the values of family, that’s all God asks for and that’s all I care about.
    I feel like abortion is the same concept, and yet totally different. If the individual is aborting to avoid responsibility, that’s personally upsetting to me. Having been a victim of rape, I seen the draw for wanting to abort. Had I become pregnant, my ex would have fought for that child. Aborting it to prevent it from the burden of even knowing my ex was appealing because with feminine instinct, all I would want for my child is to keep it safe. Why introduce it to a world of turmoil and that ass hole of a father when it could instead thrive peacefully in heaven?
    But I decided if faced with that choice, I would explore adoption. Even still, the foster system is terrifying.
    I guess I’m still on the fence, or leaning against it from one side. I would always try to encourage adoption over abortion.

  119. mayadeb02 says:

    Abortion is not an easy topic or choice, but for me it WAS easy. Never felt guilty about it. I was young and slipped up by not being protected. Did I want to bring a child into this world, a lifetime commitment, when I already had one and didn’t want another? Hell no.

    Abortion is and should be a personal choice of the woman, maybe the man if he is around and cares, but definitely the woman. I agree with AdoptingJames that the “me” reason is the most compelling.

  120. Cres says:

    I like this! Like the way u wrote and caught my attention.

  121. Kourtney says:

    I think that you were right when you said that abortion comes down to the single person. Their wants, needs, feelings, etc. But I think the thing that a lot, maybe not all, of pro-choicers forget is that life isn’t really about how we feel personally. It’s all about God. How do you think God feels when a woman lets a man all up in her private space to kill a child, just because she didn’t want to deal with it? God probably doesn’t feel very good. Also, when abortion happens, that’s kind of mistreating their bodies – soooo many bad side effects happen after abortion, and like Paul says in Corinthians, we need to treat our body like a temple. I volunteer at a Pregnancy Resource Center, and I think if girls knew what an abortion really does to their bodies, they would really think twice about getting one. It sounds like a horror story.

  122. micable says:

    Dear am really thankful for ur constant visit and am so sorry for the long silence, that’s cos i have been having issue logging into my wordpress account.

  123. Alyce-Kay says:

    One of the things I realized about the over population argument is that, right at the beginning, God commanded mankind to “fill the earth.” Isn’t it interesting that that’s what we/they are afraid of? We’re afraid of actually doing what God said to do.

  124. janismith says:

    Anything can be made legal and still be wrong. Sin is still sin, legal or not.

  125. pynomrah says:

    I know this is kind of an old post, but I wanted to say this. You are absolutely right that the decision is all about me. My choice, my right, my body. It’s also my responsibility to deal with the cultural, ethical, and spiritual consequences of that choice. For good or ill, each individual has the right to make the choice for themselves and not have their choice taken away from them. We all make our decisions based on our own experiences, beliefs, and understanding. These things are ours to own, and not something that someone else should be able to dictate to us without regard to how their views will effect our life, future, or choices. It doesn’t matter if it is considered a sin by some or not, the choice is only up to the person making the decision. Two wrongs don’t make a right. While you may see abortion as wrong, it is no less wrong to force your will on someone else when they are making their choice. I chose not to have an abortion, that was my choice. Someone else may not make the same choice. But I will not take that choice away from someone else simply because I do not agree with it.

  126. Cebuana C.A. says:

    I would like to chime in, but I can only express it through the views of internationally renowned Christian theistic philosopher, Dr. William Lane Craig on our intrinsic moral values and what makes up a human being, which made me remain a pro-life advocate:

    http://www.reasonablefaith.org/abortion-and-presidential-politics

    When I was also ten, my family found an aborted baby from the garbage in a mall. We were going to adopt her and even called her Jasmine but since she was too premature when she was born, she died only a week after we found her. That experience gave my dad a permanent cluster headache, and as for me, it haunted me for years. No one who would have witnessed that would so easily decide to support others to perform abortion. And most that I know of who get abortion aren’t usually on the grounds of rape cases, it is usually a preventable situation like getting themselves drunk and didn’t use contraceptives properly or finding out that their child has defects (possibly a down-syndrome) and feared of the consequences of raising one. Yes, whatever a pro-choice defends on, it is usually because it is to do with respecting the “adult” individual. It’s an ageist thing, in my opinion. Perhaps the younger you are, the more worthless and disposable you are to the world. It’s sad, really.

  127. medasane says:

    I’m sure others have stated the pros and cons quite well. But I like your post and wish to comment anyway. I am a christian. But as sad as abortion is, and yes, it is a type of murder, I am for the freedom to abort in rape cases, in healthy ways, but against abortion. It is about freedom and mercy. Consider the opposite of this situation. What if the state had the ability to keep us healthy and alive forever? But someone grew tired of life and wanted to die at the ripe old age of two million and one? Do we have the right to force someone to live that long? Or do we let them choose to die? In my opinion, abortion for selfish reasons is dangerous and morally wrong, and should not be state sanctioned or paid for, but the freedom to make that choice should be allowed, because if we let the state dictate the length and shortness of our life time, we give our hearts and minds to a heartless system. Freedom always comes with a high cost, never a cheap one.

  128. NH says:

    I can’t even understand how you “thought like an abortionist”. Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion. Pro-choice means giving someone the option to make a decision for themselves, and allowing them the information and knowledge to do so.
    By making it law to say “no, you can’t do this safely,” you are taking away a human right in favour of an unborn, unthinking, unfeeling bundle of cells.
    The brain is the last thing to develop. The brain is the last thing to be awakened in a fetus. It is the only thing that feels, that thinks, or has a mind. Arguably, it is what separates us from animals. Just because cells are moving and growing does not make it human. The mind is what makes it human. When it is aborted, it had no mind. It has no thought. It is not “being”. This developmental aspect is not merely an opinion but a fact of science.
    What you are forgetting in this whole debate is the CHOICE aspect. If I choose to have an abortion because I don’t want children, that is my choice. It is my choice to not bring another human into the world that I cannot or do not want to care for, just as it is your choice not to bring home a dog from the pound. If I do not want a child but you force me to carry it anyways, who says I am a good person and will go to my doctors appointments? Who says I will not drink and cause harm to myself and the developing cells? Who sas that if I put this child in adoption, it will indeed go to a “good” home – or ANY home at all? Have you considered the terrible legal and unfortunate foster care systems we have in the Western world? MOST of those children do not get homes, but are thrown from home to home instead, causing personal and public issues to themselves and others.
    The debates brought up in this “article” are not debates feminists and human rights actovists fight for behind the scenes. These may be *some* issues brought up to the public, in order to get the government’s attention. They are not the core of it all. The core is CHOICE. In my mind, there is no question. You do not get to put anyone or anything’s rights over my own.
    Choice.

    • I’m sorry. I stopped reading after “unthinking, unfeeling bundles of cells.” There’s no way to take you seriously at that point.

      You’re either for abortion or your against it. Or you can be, I guess, against it or “not against it,” which is what you seem to be.

      • NH says:

        I’m for choice. I’m for whatever anyone decides what is right for them.
        I’m for legal and safe abortion. I’m not a melting-pot citizen, I’m a mosaic. I am an accepting, non- judgemental atheist Canadian. And hot damn am I happy about it. :)
        I’m majoring in sexualities. I work with Planned Parenthood (Canada – not anything like the American bull crap I see in the news). We give women and men correct information to make their own choices, so they don’t have to take the stigma and discrimination brought on by “good citizens” like yourself.
        By the way. If abortion is murder then so is ehaculation and menstruation. They both contain cells. They both aren’t people. It’s a simple thing, really. If you’ve taken any sort of introductory human science course you’d know that.
        I’m so terribly sorry that you failed so miserably at understanding what the simple term CHOICE means. I feel so awful for you. But it is ignorant and naive people such as yourself that I aim to undue with knowledge, values, support, and basic human rights for youth.

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