The “Horrors” of the Creation Theory Part 1

We came out of nowhere. We crawled out of a muddy puddle and evolved into primates and so on, and then our intelligence developed and many millions of years later, here we are communicating hundreds or thousands of miles away, one person sharing his thoughts with another person.

That’s what many people believe. It’s a safe theory to cling to because no one person, or being is in charge. In the world of atheists, evolutionists, polytheists, ect., we get to make up our own rules, or we can choose whose rules to apply to our lives. In the trappings of these worldviews we, as a human race, are not held accountable to anything. We just have to submit to the rules of established authority, mind our business, and carry on until we reach the grave. There is nothing to live for except yourself and maybe your family, and there is certainly nothing to die for, except maybe your country. But who says?

If we believe that there was one God who created us and this universe we inhabit, then we are admitting that we are dependent on Him for our basic needs, our very lives, just as an ant is depending on the children in the park not to step on it. The creation worldview, I believe, is a turnoff to many because it requires obedience to a God who long before set the rules. No one wants to be told what to do, or how to live. So, let’s just blow this whole creation thing off and live to eat, drink, and be merry.

And all that time, your heart is being hardened against God, and it becomes harder and harder for you to accept His truth.

But accepting the reality of God’s existence is different from accepting the lordship of God’s rule in your life. As a Christian, I’ve spent many years knowing that God is real, but denying His authority over my life (or more bluntly put, disobeying Him at every turn). I believe with all my heart that people at some early time in their life, know that God exists. But then they start heeding to the screams of the world as though they’re at a fair, and they don’t know which is the best booth to swipe their card at because there are so many shiny deals and loud announcements coming from all around them. “It’s all about you”, “Pick a god, any god”, “Money is good, so money is god”, “The key to Heaven? Just be good.” So many choices!

And you know what the most popular thing to believe in is now? They’re ALL right! Pick any path, serve any god, please yourself, and you’ll end up finding yourself walking through those pearly gates. After all, that’s the goal, isn’t it? Eternal bliss? A never-ending vacation from the turmoils of this world? Everlasting “me-time”? If that’s your view of Heaven, then I’m afraid you’ve got it all wrong. If abiding by a pre-existing set of rules is a turn-off to Christianity, then here’s another one: Heaven will not be centered around those who make it in. It will be centered forever around the One who’s building it, brick by brick, and made it possible for anyone to even enter into it at all. Heaven will be about worshiping Jesus Christ for all of eternity.

If that sounds dreadful to you, then you’ve really got to rearrange your priorities, and learn who’s more important. You or God? I’ll admit that even as a Christian, I sometimes get wearied by the idea of worshiping Jesus for all time instead of taking a never-ending breather from life. But here’s the good news – we were created to worship! We are drawn to worship as a moth is to a lamp. If you spend hours gaming online, you’re worshiping. If you spend your workday anxious to get home to HBO, you’re worshiping. God made us to worship; we have no choice in that. But we do have a choice as to what we worship.

Will you continue to worship this false idea that there is no God and life is all about you and your loved ones? Will you worship the idea that we are supplied with an array of choices before us and each one holds the key to eternal Me-time? Or will you worship the preserver of life, who created you to worship Him, so that you can have a lifetime learning to fall in love with Him, and greatly desire to spend your eternity praising Him without the distractions of this life?

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About adoptingjames
My lovely wife and I are foster parents, dog owners, home owners, and Christians. I am a blogger, book editor, and author. On my blog you'll read about adoption, faith topics, inspirational thoughts, and a whole lotta Disney/Pixar lovin'! For the most exciting read ever, check out my suspense/adventure novel, The Man in the Box. You. Will. Love it.

179 Responses to The “Horrors” of the Creation Theory Part 1

  1. beverleysmith36 says:

    Well you can have eternal Me-time but you can’t have eternal God time as well. And those who seek honour among earthly things will have already received their prize and there will be nothing for them in eternity. Nice post

  2. Sara says:

    Enjoyed your post. That Eternal ‘me time’ kinda of scary even when I believe in Christ Jesus.

  3. hisprincess3 says:

    Wow! That was such a GREAT post! I’m loving each of your blogs so far!

  4. terry1954 says:

    you worded this perfectly!

  5. rich says:

    who do you think god appreciates more?

    1. the people who follow his word through bible study and do all the things he wants them to do, but are often thinking about what’s awaiting them in the next life?

    2. the people who do not believe in god but are good-natured people who are naturally doing the right things because they know it’s the right thing – not because the bible says for them to do those thing?

    • Philippeans 3:13-14 says, “One thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead. I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.” All that to say that we must also do our duty here in this world to which God has called us to do. People who do good but do not have a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, their deeds are as “filthy rags” to God, and merits them nothing in the life to come.

      • rich says:

        is this your opinion or that of someone written thousands of years ago?

        next question: who do you think god appreciates more?

        1. the person who does good but does not believe in god.

        2. the person who lies, cheats, steals once a week and then goes to confession on sunday?

      • Rich, I would argue that the “person who lies, cheats, steals once a week and then goes to confession on sunday” may believe in God (at least intellectually speaking), but they do not truly believe in God in their heart of hearts. To truly believe in God means obeying Him out of love and recognition of all He has done for us, not out of guilt or obligation.

      • Harvey says:

        Your ego is astounding yet unremarkable; there are perhaps millions like you who respect nothing but bible verse, see no wisdom in logic and disrespect those who do not follow your path.

        When I sacrifice to help someone in need; to you and your “God” it may be a “filthy rag” but to that person it brings joy — that’s all the reward I need.

        The only “life to come” is tomorrow morning. If and when the morrow comes I’ll feel good about myself and know that I’ve made the world (THIS WORLD) a little better place.

        If the morrow never comes, I can revel in the peace of the grave. I expect no greater reward.

        • were your comments directed to me? If so – you are far off base – I am at best a student of organised religion – but a believer – I am NOT!

          • Harvey says:

            Debramoolenaar, No my comments were not directed at you — they were in response to “adoptingjames” who tossed out that insulting quotation from Philippeans 3:13-14.

  6. Jim Cantwell says:

    John 3:16 says “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life”
    so why would I not want to worship God and Jesus for eternity? We are here because God and Jesus love us and all we need to do is love them back and believe the truth before us, it is really quite simple.

  7. Is faith to, despite an overcontrary ponderance of evidence, include an idea’s truth as one of the basic and intrinsic premises, such as the necessity of breath and the permanence of gravity, on which all the constructions of logic and reason are based?

  8. Awa says:

    Interesting post!

    What if God created the Universe-initiated the big bang- “in his image” because all things are god and god is all things, and man evolved from that as science shows?

    What if eating from the tree of knowledge was just primate moving into humanness? Away from an instinctual beast that was just an expression of god and towards a philosophical man that could sense the presence of god, and separate himself, through his own concept of individuality?

    And what if god loves man most because we are now capable of questioning God, but chose to believe anyhow? I don’t know…I just don’t think it needs to be an either/or situation.

    • Hey Awa,

      You raise good questions, and I’m sure that the editor of this blog will have some good responses. Mind if I weigh in?

      The Bible speaks to most of those questions you raised. Regarding your first question, Genesis 1:1 says “in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” The heavens and the earth are not God, because he existed before them. He could not create himself. Additionally, the distinction between God and his creation is emphasized in Romans 1:24-25, which talks about God’s anger at people worshiping created things rather than worshiping God. That would suggest that all things are not God, and that those who worship creation as God or a part of God are mistaken.

      Genesis 2:15-3:7 is important regarding your second set of questions. As you read this section, you can see that even before Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge, they were rational, thinking beings with their own concepts of individuality. They were already human. The decision to eat from the tree of knowledge was an act of disobedience to God’s command, and it displeased God. Otherwise, he would not have punished them.

      Regarding the third question, Matthew 9:36 says that Jesus had compassion on people because he saw that they were “harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.” One of the reasons God loves us is because he sees that we are lost and confused. Naturally, all of us tend to worship the wrong things, such as our own comfort, pleasure, or intellectual ability. Romans 1:18-25 tells us that this is the reason why judgment will eventually come upon earth. God saw the situation and sent his son Jesus to be a substitute. Jesus was perfect and sinless, but he received the just punishment for our sins. In return, he gave us his own record of righteousness before God. All who confess their sin and ask God for forgiveness, believing that Jesus is God and that he rose from the dead, will be saved. (John 3:16, Ephesians 2:1-10).

      so that’s basically the Christian point of view regarding the ideas you put forward. I encourage you to look up these Bible references I used on BibleGateway.com. I would love to continue the conversation with you and hear what you have to say. Hope you have a great day!

  9. johnedoe says:

    Good morning,….this is one of those very tricky, and rather sensitive topics, isn’t it??? lol, which I lol in a good way here! I like “Rich” and “Awa’s” thoughts…..I love mysteries, and puzzles!!! I just do,…I always have! I love discovering how everything fits together perfectly…any and everything is designed to just that, do you agree??? God did not just bumble around and then look at things and say, “wow, I never knew THAT WAS GONNA HAPPEN!!!”…..my brother went to a baptist college when he was younger,…in an “educated and logical” (?????? lord help us all!) attempt to dismiss the dinosaurs,…the teacher told his students that satan put their bones here to deceive us??? big LOL ON THAT ONE!!! right???…..

    Honest truth is this,…had I been going to that class,…by the time that I left,…the teacher would be have been wondering where he could get an application to work as a meet and greet guy at wal-mart!!!! LOL! What I mean is,…if this teacher is presenting, argumentative evidence to build a case for me to become a Christian on,…and “that was all he had to offer me, show me, and prove to me” (and all others) then I would have left as a non-believer,……case dismissed. There is a factual saying, which is,……EVIDENCE, DEMANDS A VERDICT……This is how a trial in a courtroom works….no good and solid evidence,…no case,…right?????

    Now,…I gotta say this,…I am a firm believer in God,…and I am a firm believer in Jesus as well…but,…truth is,…as far as the evolution “theory/concept/fact” it would in no way damage my faith in the slightest. why would it, is my question?

    One of “Adam’s” grandson’s (tubalCAIN) was clearly stated in genesis as being a founder of the “Bronze Age”,…which was roughly six thousand years ago.…“prior” to this,…the stone age.…“after” bronze came the iron age…..all of the dates are clearly recorded. That said,…Why would I deny any thing at all that was here before us? the (very meticulously) recorded dates from Adam on up to Noah, and then on up to Jesus……perfectly fit the time frame pertaining to the bronze age dating.

    If we are to appear to be sensible and rational in our belief,…are we doing so if we deny historical evidence. if we do not seek to find how everything fits together??? I know for a fact that dinosaurs existed. why deny it? our saving faith is based on what God for us all through Jesus, correct??? in knowing and accepting what we believe concerning Jesus,….then are we not truly free to seek to see how all fits perfectly together?
    I, for one,…believe that we are. and this is part of what makes my faith exciting. our faith is about how the “natural and the spiritual” work in Unison,…the spirit of God,…residing inside of human flesh,…agreed???

    THE COOL THING IS,…AND THIS IS WHERE THE VERY FIRST ILLUSTRATION OF “FAITH” COMES FROM IN THE BIBLE, IS THIS,…

    WE ARE NEVER TOLD WHERE GOD COMES FROM, ARE WE???

    There is a curious part of me that would like to know the answer to this,…BUT,…IN AND BECAUSE OF MY “FAITH” IN HIS INTRODUCTION (WHICH IS ACTUALLY A “LACK” OF INTRODUCTION!)…I AM “THEN” (and only then) ABLE TO BELIEVE ALL THAT FOLLOWS IN THE BIBLE…..

    CAN THIS BE DIFFERENTLY FOR ANY HUMAN????????

    By the way,…I love thoughts such as yours,….as well as all the others!!!! did I tell you that yet!!!!???

    In focusing on my day to faith in Jesus first,…and my relationship with Him,…then,…no other theories harm what I believe in any way…nor do any other doctrines,…

    I said that to this,…I restore old motorcycles…I love it! as do all others I know who restore things! so,…“Why do we do it???” I mean, we take this worthless, lost cause, rusted (corrupted) piece of junk, (as far as most others in the world are concerned!!!) and we put time and effort into our project…along with some “blood, sweat, and tears”…and in and through our enduring to the end of our project,…all of the once skeptical doubters, and nay-sayers (I like that word! lol) then see a shining work of art!!!….they say what??? I JUST CAN’T BELIEVE THAT “THIS” IS THAT WORTHLESS PIECE OF JUNK!!!!!!!!!
    Their limited and “rational” minds, at one time,….just couldn’t get it, grasp it, and or, see it…this type of mindset is so very human…they had so many doubts,…as they had no faith. We, who restore hopeless things, are kind of, “resurrecting” the dead,…beyond dead,…rotting and hopeless,…I think I’ll call my next bike,…LAZARUS.

    IN THE BEGINNING THE WORLD WAS WITHOUT “FORM” AND “VOID” (DEVOID)?????

    DOES IT SAY,…IN THE BEGINNING, THERE WAS A HUGE BLACK HOLE??? THAT THERE WAS “NOTHING” THERE??? I would like to say that if you allow yourself to challenge the limits of our thoughts,…I may, in reality,…increase our faith,…not weaken it….it does for me! jus sayin

    Once more,…THE WORLD,……..”WAS!!!!!!”,………WITHOUT FORM.

    WE ARE NOT TOLD WHERE GOD COMES FROM,…ARE WE??? BUT I PERSONALLY THINK THAT HE MAY BE IN THE SALVAGE BUSINESS,…….

    Perhaps He came upon our dead earth,…lifeless???,…a cast away planet drifting, floating, existing, in a chasm of nothingness,…………..and saw something that others couldn’t see??? and much like restoring an old, thrown away, worthless motorcycle,…..He then, began the whole nine yards that we so easily want to argue about????…I will share just a little bit more about why I feel, think, reason, etc,…that I may be correct in my view,……IS THIS NOT GOD’S NATURE??? ACCORDING TO WHAT WE READ AND HAVE LEARNED ABOUT HIM IN THE BIBLE??? DOES JESUS TRULY “REFLECT” HIS FATHER’S NATURE TO US ALL AS THE DOUBTING HUMANS THAT WE ARE????……………IF WE HAVE SEEN JESUS,…HAVEN’T WE SEEN THE FATHER???,….AND “VICE-VERSA”????………

    as humans,…our bodies are made up of the identical elements from, and of, the earth upon which we live,…yes???? the exact same earth from which (according to God’s word) from which we came,….yes???……he (God) formed Adam from the?????? dust. (talk about a lost cause to the outside observer, huh!!!!????,…lol,…a skeptic asks this question,…

    “hey man,…what are gonna do with that handful of dirt????!”,…..

    God responds,…”I AM GOING TO MAKE A MAN OUT OF IT.”………LOL………cmon!!!! you know that’s funny!!!!!

    the further description of the “world” in GENESIS,…(which means origination)…is exactly, perfectly, precisely comparable to US as HUMANS!!!,…humans who do not yet have God in our lives….

    2And the earth (HUMAN) was without form, (HAD NO GODLY IMAGE) and void (WE ARE EMPTY) and darkness was upon the face of the deep. (WANDERING BLIND IN OUR NATURAL/SINFUL LIVES) And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (GOD POURED OUT HIS SPIRIT ON ALL FLESH)

    3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    THE LIGHT,…JESUS,…CORRECT??? WHO WAS WITH GOD FROM THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD, CORRECT???

    4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. (HOW MANY DIFFERENT SCRIPTURES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT ALONE TELL US THAT JESUS IS THE TRUE LIGHT, ETC, ETC,…?????????

    WE EMPTY HUMANS (DIRTBAGS) NOW CAN GO FROM “LOST” AND HOPELESS,…BLIND AND PURPOSELESSNESS, DIRECTIONLESS SINNERS,…TO BELIEVERS IN JESUS,…THROUGH HIS “NOW (IN)DWELLING HOLY SPIRIT,…THROUGH FAITH

    For someone to appreciate a motorcycle that I have restored,…they DO NOT HAVE TO KNOW WHERE I CAME FROM,…correct???

    For someone to appreciate the meticulous details, the polishing, the painting,…and, even at times, the seemingly random, parts, pieces, and the way they all come together (the way or order in which they were assembled) to work perfectly,…do they need to see it as a pile of hopeless junk???…nope. Would they realize that someone spent much time and thought to make it “so???” but,…they would be able to ride it and enjoy it,….if they had the “faith” and “balance” to do so. Much like the wheels of a motorcycle being ridden,…the world also turns.

    Yup,….I TRULY DO BELIEVE,…THAT GOD SO LOVES HOPELESS AND LOST CAUSES, CORRUPTED THINGS, THAT HE HAD A SALVAGE BUSINESS WHERE HE TAUGHT HIS SON TO DO GREAT “RESTORATION” WORK…but,…who am I to say???…maybe should just ask Lazarus????

    have a good one,…toksoon??? John e doe

  10. Tom Raines says:

    Interesting discussions. Amazing that God created man from dirt and somehow the dirt thinks it has evolved to be able to understand and maybe even know more than God. Thanks for the topic and discussions!

  11. johnedoe says:

    HEY TOM,…HOW ARE YOU DOIN????……. i was wondering if you could expound on your thought a bit more for us all please!……..i’d love to hear more about what are trying to say here, please!

  12. johnedoe says:

    part of the reason that i ask is this,…..in an earlier comment,…concerning Eve eating the forbidden fruit????? it was much more do then her rational “thoughts” that led her to eat of it,….correct???? why i say this is,….if her “logical and rational reasoning” thoughts were her “motivator” for eating of the tree,……then,……why would satan have even needed to have gotten involved??? Because we know that satan jacked her mind up, correct??? and he lied to her too,….didn’t he???

    And, in accordance with the actual words in Genesis,….after she ate of it,….she gave to her husband to eat (who was) with her……????……Adam was with her during her temptation. This is clearly stated yes????…..if Adam was not right beside her,….the words “with her” would have no need to be included in Genesis, as it was obvious that they were “WITH EACH OTHER” in the garden…..correct????…..

    So I ask,…..since Adam had dominion over every “creature” in the garden,……WHY DID NOT ADAM, “REBUKE” SATAN?????……………..

    IN LOOKING AT MANY OF DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS AS FAR AS THE WORD “SERPENT” IS CONCERNED,….THERE A QUITE A FEW,…BUT,…..ONE IS “HISS”,….ANOTHER IS “WHISPER????”….I believe that Eve heard a “whisper” in her “mind.” in her mind,…..NOT HER EAR(S)…………………

  13. johnedoe says:

    we are told that all in the garden of eden was “good”,….correct??? what was the one thing in the garden that was labeled as bad???? (hint,…it was “not” satan)……i believe you may find your answer as to why adam ate of the fruit as well as eve………..

  14. dgcree says:

    Well put !!!

  15. johnedoe says:

    THE ONLY BAD THING IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN,….WAS,….LONELINESS,………………ADAM’S LONELINESS,……..SO,…BECAUSE OF THAT LONELINESS,….GOD CREATED EVE

    you ever heard that “the spirit is willing,…but the flesh is weak???

  16. I was in the process of entering a comment on another computer, then it all of a sudden died! Yet, I am not deterred. What I was saying before was that I spent several minutes reading many of the above comments, only to get a headache. I hope my comments won’t be head-achy. I use small words.

    One person commented that even if evolution was a fact, his faith would not suffer. Really? That reminds me of a comment shared with my 16 year-old daughter just yesterday. A girl told her, “I believe the Bible, but I also believe in creation.” Obviously one or two things are going on, here. Either these people don’t know their Bible, or they have a messed up understanding of evolution, or both.

    We believe the Bible because we believe it is true. If it is true, then what it says is to be believed. If the Bible says that God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1), then He either did, or the Bible is a lie. Did God form man from the dust of the earth and breath life into him? Did make all the creatures “as is” in the first 6 days, or did He not? If evolution is true, the Bible is not. IF the Bible is not true in these issues, it can’t be trusted in any other.

    The God that men fear is the God that condemns. The God that men hate is the God that says they need a Savior, that they can’t be good enough for heaven on their own. However, the God that is loved is the one who made a way to redeem sinful man. The Way was Jesus.

    How can people believe in macro evolution, that man came from lower organisms, and still believe that Jesus is the Savior of the world? IF evolution is a fact, then the following verses are false: 1Cr 15:22 – For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    1Cr 15:45 – And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. You can’t go around saying the Bible, God, and Jesus are flawed and untrustworthy, and still say you believe. You either believe, or you don’t. In the best case Christian/Evolutionist is ill-informed.

    Ok, well, I am going to take an Excedrin.

  17. babu says:

    Your words would have more credence if you didn’t make straw men out of those who disagree with you. You don’t know anything about evolutionists or atheists. Stick to what you know.

  18. johnedoe says:

    .

    of course i’m the guy who said if evolution was true, my faith wouldn’t suffer,….so it’s okay to say that it is me,…lol,…good morning!,…i hope that your excedrin “works” for you,…i personally, “don’t” need one,…lol,…but i believe that God can heal your headache. as for your following quote(s)….which are copied and pasted next….

    “We believe the Bible because we believe it is true. If it is true, then what it says is to be believed. If the Bible says that God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1), then He either did, or the Bible is a lie. Did God form man from the dust of the earth and breath life into him?” (there are other scripturally accurate statements which you made as well,…i think,…but there are some that may be a bit out of context, maybe? so, i won’t pursue those here)

    i do agree with all of these things that you mentioned here, (above) as i clearly stated in “everything” that i have written,…perhaps your headache comes from “not reading” what i wrote “correctly” before hastily writing your response,….jus sayin,…..

    you had said that i don’t know the bible,…or evolution? correct??? I “DO NOT” STUDY EVOLUTION,…AS IT IS NOT MY SAVIOR. you, obviously, to say that “I DO NOT UNDERSTAND” evolution,….implies that you do. If you believe that God did it all in six days, that is what you believe. period. (what if God would have done it in fourteen days??? would that effect your belief in Jesus as your savior, if you do believe in jesus???) i also would like to ask this, why do YOU STUDY EVOLUTION??? especially since it “seems” such a waste of time???

    i would much rather read about Jesus, and other things like “why did the apostle Peter carry a sword???” remember when he cut the ear off a Caiphas, the high priests servant??? (malchus, maybe??? i’ll have to double check,…the names are not important to the “why” of peter’s sword, though)…..in the book of proverbs we read that AN OFFENDED MAN IS A DEAF MAN,…correct??? peter’s sword??? as with “any” of us,…the sword is our tongue, and the words which we speak, and the intent behind our words. are yours to hurt,…or to heal “me”, as i am the one who you say is “suffering”,….correct???

    ……and, as i also said,…my faith is just fine, thanks. the following is another of your direct quotes, correct???……i copied and pasted,…so rest assured that it is.

    The God that men fear is the God that condemns. The God that men hate is the God that says they need a Savior, that they can’t be good enough for heaven on their own. However, the God that is loved is the one who made a way to redeem sinful man. The Way was Jesus.

    ok,….as for the “first two”, i am not sure what you are saying in relation to the “last two”??????

    THE GOD THAT MEN IS THE GOD THAT CONDEMS????? is that a scripture??? if so,…what is the rest of the context, and where did it come from, please??? quick question for ya,….DOES GOD CONDEMN??? OR, IS BEING CONDEMNED FROM NOT FORM PLACING OUR FAITH IN JESUS…(john 3;16 is a helpful example)…through our unbelief,..we ARE CONDEMNED ALREADY???,….etc,etc,…

    THE GOD THAT MEN HATE IS THE GOD THAT SAYS THEY NEED A SAVIOR, that they can’t be good enough for heaven on their own……..again,…is this a scripture??? etc???….(uuuuhhhmmmm,….in all honesty,…i have no clue how this fits with the topic,…..sorry……)

    and lastly,….THE GOD THAT IS LOVED IS THE ONE WHO MADE A WAY TO REDEEM SINFUL MAN. The Way was Jesus…..THE WAY WAS JESUS??????? since you like to keep things so “precise”,…”THE WAY “IS”,…JESUS,…not was”……i hope your headache is better………..

    and,…your final quote follows now……1Cr 15:45 – And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
    You can’t go around saying the Bible, God, and Jesus are flawed and untrustworthy, and still say you believe. You either believe, or you don’t. In the best case Christian/Evolutionist is ill-informed. (I WAS NOT, AND DID NOT SAY THAT THE BIBLE WAS FLAWED AND UNTRUSTWORTHY,…unless you were speaking to someone esle who commented,…if so, forgive me.

    AS I SAID,…I FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT GOD FORMED ADAM FROM THE DUST AND BREATHED LIFE INTO HIM,…AND THEN TOOK EVE FROM HIS SIDE,…I ALSO BELIEVE THAT ADAM AND EVE WERE “THE FIRST PEOPLE (OF GOD) ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH”…. (you may wanna grab your excedrin now, btw) BUT,…I “DO NOT” BELIEVE THAT THEY WERE THE FIRST “PEOPLE” ON THE EARTH.

    CAIN TOOK A WIFE,…..DID HE NOT???? WHO, SCRIPTURALLY, DID HE MARRY??? ETC, ETC,….i’m not to go into many, many more scriptures which clearly state the existance of other “humans” which were outside of the Garden of Eden, here, and now,…yet again,…”their” existance DOES NOT HURT MY FAITH IN THE SLIGHTEST,…JUST THE OPPOSITE,…ONLY STRENGTHENS IT.

    ok,…enough for the moment,….i hope that your headache is doing better,….i really do!!!!…..have a good one!!!!!! john e doe

  19. johnedoe says:

    it got a little too quiet here………….i hope the excedrin helped………………lol

  20. johnedoe, I am sitting here in front of my computer, Bible also, preparing for tomorrows sermon. Out of curiosity I check back here. My first thought is “What is this guy on?” Seriously, man, I wish I had your energy. You type like you are a keyboard hummingbird. I don’t even know if i caught all you said!

    The excedrin didn’t work, btw.

    @babu, if it’s me you’re talking to, then whatever.

    @johnedoe, again. What I was trying to say was that the Bible, if it is true (which I believe it is), cannot mesh with the theory of macro evolution, specifically that man evolved from lower life forms. Now, I don’t know what you believe with regards to other people on the earth before Adam. That is a whole different discussion. But from a soteriological perspective, the Bible is clear that sin entered into the world (mankind) through one man, Adam (Romans 5:12). This is obviously critical to the understanding of why Christ came to die as the second Adam (Romans 5:14; 1 Corinthians 15:45).

    If you don’t mind, let me revisit what I said earlier. I said “The God that men fear is the God that condemns. The God that men hate is the God that says they need a Savior, that they can’t be good enough for heaven on their own.”

    One of the original points of the main article was that some men are too afraid to acknowledge a Creator, for fear they may have to answer to Him one day. They fear the existence of a God who condemns, therefore they are more than happy to deny He exists, even if they have to contrive every theory possible to explain Him away.

    When I said, “The God that men hate is the God that says they need a Savior…” it was simply based on the words of several atheists with which I have conversed. They say, “I don’t need a savior because I don’t need to be saved.” Christopher Hitchens comes to mind. As a matter of fact, the new militant atheists have a tendency to get offended when you suggest their righteousness and good deeds aren’t good enough to earn heaven.

    Also, when Jesus said that he who does not believe is condemned already, He was not saying that God does not condemn. God is the Righteous Judge (Rev 20:10-15). There will be a day of reckoning.

    God bless you, johnedoe, or whatever your real name is. And babu, well, God loves you, too, whether you believe in Him or not. That I do know.

    • johnedoe says:

      WHAT’S HAPPENING ANTHONY???……I WANT YOU TO KNOW SOMETHING THAT IS MORE IMPORTANT TO ME THAN ANYTHING THAT I HAVE WRITTEN WHICH FOLLOWS,….OK????…….I WANT YOU TO KNOW THIS,…..I LOVE YOU MAN!!!!!……I REALLY DO……….remember this as you read, ok????…….lol

      WHEN, IN OUR SEEKING GOD, and in our desire to know MORE ABOUT HIM,…..so that WE MAY “GROW” IN OUR FAITH (AND, THUS, CLOSER TO HIM AS WE DO SO),…..WHEN WHAT “SHOULD BE” LOVING ENCOURAGEMENT,….TURNS INSTEAD, INTO “HEAD KNOWLEDGE SCRIPTURE QUOTING”……..the “holy” spirit can become rapidly quenched,……..and this is not a good thing,….is it????

      We are told to “quench not the spirit”…..yes???……When this “QUENCHING” happens,…the true meaning of “communion” is tarnished,….WE ARE TO BE THANKFUL FOR THE BREAD, BREAK, AND SHARE THE BREAD (JESUS/JESUS’ FLESH/GOD’S WORD),…AND DRINK OF THE WINE (HIS BLOOD/SPIRIT/ATTITUDE)…..When we “thankfully” and “joyfully” share God’s word with one another,…and in the right(eous) spirit and attitude,….this is how we love one another as He loved us,….this is also a choice,….a conscious choice,….of freewill,………

      A keyboard hummingbird??? nice,….as for my typing,….I use two fingers,…as for my education, sophomore in high school,…as for sin (and death) entering in to man through “adam”,…I “NEVER” said otherwise,…….as for terms such as “macro, or micro, or whatever evolution???,….as I said earlier,…I DO NOT study that stuff,…I don’t know how to make that more clear to you than what I stated earlier “twice”………….

      As for my communicating with you in a “Loving and Good Natured Way” with you???….it takes two to tango,….ya know???…..From the first thing that you posted,….I have tried to laugh with you,..and have a good time with you,…as brothers, neighbors, and friends,………have I not???

      As for you being to able to “win the souls” of the lost??? (and I am in no way speaking of myself here!!!) as Jesus says that “HE WHO WINS SOULS IS WISE”,…correct???……When you (we) begin to see that “OTHER” humans in the world “WHO” may be looking “somewhere or anywhere!!!” just to see if there is a hope,..or possibility that God is real,…OR IS REAL ENOUGH!,…..for them (ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE A NON BELIEVER!) to even remotely consider BELIEVING IN HIM,…..AND MORE SO,….having a reason for them to be placing their faith in Jesus?????,……and then they stop by a blog such as this to see what they may find,……What do you think they see when you are,….???…….well,….here is a quote from “someone” earlier,….which,…this comment followed your,….”smug” comment(s)……….sorry anthony,….it was smug….jus sayin……

      here is their comment,..YOUR WORDS WOULD HAVE MORE CREDENCE IF YOU DIDN’T MAKE STRAW MEN OUT OF THOSE WHO DISAGREE WITH YOU. YOU DON’T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT EVOLUTIONISTS OR ATHEISTS. STICK TO WHAT YOU KNOW.

      I love this person,…(EVEN IF THEIR QUOTE WAS DIRECTED TOWARDS “ME” ANTHONY!!!) do they have to believe as I do????…….do they have to think the same as me???? NO!!!,…No, is the answer to both!!!!!

      But,…whether the world was “literally” created in six days,…or not,…..here is what I know for a fact,……not only do I “not fear” whatEVER this person “may believe”,…….but,….I KNOW THAT JESUS LOVES THEM JUST AS MUCH AS YOU OR ME!!!!,…….AND JESUS SAYS THAT THOSE WHO CALL ON HIS NAME,…WILL BE SAVED!!!!! PERIOD!!!!!

      That is (THE GOOD NEWS!!!) where our “REST” is found…..REST for ALL the weary souls, Anthony,…..then, IN GOD’S FAMILY, AS NEW, AND COMLETELY ACCEPTED BELIEVERS,…they can “FREELY” begin to learn as the Holy Spirit leads them,….and they can do it “freely” (Jesus says that ALL OF THOSE who HE has “freed”,..ARE ABSOLUTELY FREED,….correct????),…in conjunction with the holy spirit, “the comforter”…every indivdual begins by using their minds to read, study, reason, question,….etc,…..ANYTHING that is written in The Bible,…………without the fear of condemnation. Correct???? JESUS DOES NOT WANT TO TURN US IN TO MINDLESS DRONES AND RELIGIOUS ZOMBIES,…….as you said (and so have I) we have freewill,…..correct???

      THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS’ ACCEPTANCE OF US AND SHED BLOOD AS PAYMENT FOR ALL OF OUR SINS AND IMPERFECTIONS,….WE ARE TOTALLY FREE TO GROW (AND LEARN) without being made to feel by “ANYONE” that it if they (WE) have something “wrong” that they (WE) are now (???) no longer completely accepted by Jesus,….because they (WE) don’t “know their Bible???”

      AM I GOING TO BEGIN TO TELL THIS PERSON THAT THEY ARE GOING TO GO TO HELL BECAUSE THEY DON’T BELIEVE, ETC,ETC,…..ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!

      DO “YOU” KNOW WHY, ANTHONY???????…………DO YOU THINK THAT BY CALLING SOMEONE STUPID (AS YOU ACTUALLY, AND CLEARLY IMPLIED THAT “I AM” (AS WELLAS A 16 YEAR OLD GIRL!!!!) IN YOUR EARLIER WRITING……one sec…..

      (THIS IS “YOUR!” QUOTE…….”One person commented that even if evolution was a fact, HIS FAITH would not suffer. Really? That reminds me of a comment shared with my 16 year-old daughter just yesterday. A girl told her, “I believe the Bible, but I also believe in creation.” Obviously one or two things are going on, here. Either these people don’t know their Bible,……………………………………or they have a messed up understanding of evolution,…………………………………..or both.”

      PRIDE IS A FUNNY THING ANTHONY,…….you state that I don’t know my Bible??????? (the evolution thing I could care less about,…as, yet again,..(though unacknowledged by you),…I have already stated in my earlier writings,…..Correct???,…..

      By the way,….when I make a statement based on scripture,…I ask “CORRECT????”,…DO I NOT????…..PROBABLY 15 TIMES TODAY ALONE! DID YOU DIRECTLY RESPOND TO ONE OF MY SPECIFIC ASKINGS?????????…..If so,..perhaps I missed it???,….yet you say “I” don’t know “my” bible?

      Back to the “Pride Thing???”………I SAY THIS IN LOVE,…..I TRULY DO ANTHONY,……BUT,…..FOR “YOU” TO SAY THAT “I” DO NOT KNOW GOD’S WORD????????????…..(Simply put,…”YOU, Anthony”,…by your OWN admission,…have absolutely no idea who I am,…correct????) in fact,….that is about one of the most pompous statements that I have ever heard. Period.
      But Anthony,…to ALSO say that TO AND ABOUT A 16 YEAR OLD GIRL,…etc,etc,………man! How would you even feel that is a “righteous” thing TO DO TO HER????
      ……….It is said that “A HUMAN is the only ANIMAL which blushes,…OR NEEDS TO……”

      I FEEL NO LOVE OR JOY OR PEACEFUL DESIRE TO INSPIRE ME TO EVEN WANT TO HEAR YOUR HARSH (RANDOM) POINTS….I. “MEANING MY”SELF”,…HAVE NO DESIRE TO BE “RIGHT” ABOUT ANYTHING PERTAINING TO GOD’S WORD……I SIMPLY BROUGHT UP SOME THOUGHTS, USED SCRIPTURES TO DO IT, ASKED QUESTIONS,……so that we “may” OR could have some loving fun together as a family,….AS and WHILE we learn and share and grow together,….as the body of Christ,….as bothers and sisters should and could grow together…..

      As far as “ME” goes??? I take NO offense at all,…ALTHOUGH I HEARD YOUR WORDS CLEARLY…..(Forgiveness for offenses is like water rolling off of a duck’s back) meaning,….I could “CARE LESS WHAT YOU “THINK” OF ME.” (and that it is not said in a cold and retaliatory or offensive way,..ok???) even though you “imply” that I am on drugs,…you make fun of the way that I type,…ETC,…ETC,….????? as for my “energy?????” you said you “wished” you had some like mine??????

      HAVE YOU EVER READ THE SCRIPTURE ABOUT “BELIEVE IN ME,…AND I WILL ADD HOURS TO YOUR DAY”….?????…..

      MORE IN A FEW……

  21. johnedoe says:

    HEY ANTHONY,…as I said earlier,…I really do love you man!!! so,…I been thinkin and prayin bout life in general,…and i think and feel that is what God may have tossed my way,…10 years, 10 months, 10 weeks, 10 days, 10 hours, 10 minutes, and 10 seconds,…is all in the past,…correct??? (lol,…I had to toss that in, man!) why I say this???,….it’s all water under the bridge!!! Right???

    It is so easy to come away with the wrong impression,…or “a” wrong impression of someone,…and we as humans,…base our wrong impressions on many many things, and opinions,..etc,…and,…when we don’t like or agree with what someone has to say,…we turn our backs on them,…and,…that, as they say,…is that,…

    I don’t roll that way, Anthony. it just ain’t cool. as “No man is an Island unto himself”,…Correct??? so,….even though our words are recorded,…that is simply and exactly what they are,….and that is just fine with me! I’m offering my friendship,…that is what I want you to know. And I’d like yours as well,…if you’re offering???…Friendship is not based on two people who always agree on everything, correct???……..anyway,…..there you go man!!!!!!

    Now,….as for the ADD HOURS TO OUR DAY THING??????? (don’t take it literally though!!!! ok???? there are still only 24 hours in a day,..lol)……”I will add hours to your day means this,…(my opinion) when we learn of jesus, and practice our faith,…our faith grows stronger. so, as we die to ourselves (selfish desires/attitudes) more weight is removed/taken from us each day,…..in our selfishness,….we hang on to un-forgiveness,….and that weighs us down,……and we grow weak and weary (not stolen from Poe!),…..our “fleshly opinions and attitudes” also weigh us down,…..weaker, more weary,…etc, etc,…

    I think you wrote something about legalism???? not sure though???? anyway,…it can, and does, weigh us down too…..(you are gwowinnggg vverryyy verrryyy ssswweeeeppyyyy, lol)…our joy,…is traded for sorrow,…our lively faith,…is traded for,…..is retarded by our unbelief,…etc, etc,…I do not do organised religion, at all,…I actually despise the damage that “labeling” people does to us all,…I am just a guy (dirtbag sinner would be an appropriate label!!!! lol), that God loves,…and who His son Jesus (Who I call (AS DOES HE) my brother and my friend) fulfilled the old law by signing the contract with His blood shed on the cross and his death, and paid for me to be free of my sins,…and now,…through simple faith,….and total acceptance,…I went from the “court” room,…to the “family” room.

    As an adopted child of God,…and because of this adoption, I can go “in and out of the door of the sheepfold and find rest”,…freedom like that,…is how we find freedom and healing, and completeness for our souls,…childlike faith,…beautiful!!!

    but,…as a “recovering legalist???” (did I get that right?) you absolutely know that when we are not 100% sure that WE ARE IN THE FAMILY,…then we are on constant, and shaky ground,…and our legs get tired just by trying to remain standing throughout the course of our day(s),…etc, etc,…and we are always tired,…and weary,…you do not have to “wish” for energy like mine,…just “believe and receive!!!” This energy is a nice bi-product of and from the “Holy Spirit”,…and there ain’t nothin else like it!!! And Anthony,…it is good!!!!!!

    love ya man!!!!!! toksoon,….john e doe

    • Brother, it’s now Sunday morning. I am heading off to church (organized stuff) to preach, soon. I feel I should apologize, first, if I came across as “pompous,” for that was not my intent. I also would like to say that I am sorry for accidentally implying that you, or the “girl” was/is stupid (ill-informed, mis-informed, etc., even “ignorant” does not equal stupid). The last thing I try to do is offend anyone. My desire is only to point people to the Truth (John 14:6).

      Now, one thing you pointed out was that I did not back up anything I said, specifically in response to your questioning, with any biblical reference. To be honest, I had a hard time following you in a couple of places. I didn’t understand what exactly you were looking for as “proof texts.” If you want to know where I got the ideas of man hating or fearing God, then look no further than the first chapter of Romans.

      Now, I appreciate you. I am thankful for anyone who wants to honestly talk about God’s Word and its relationship to our lives, and our eternity. I do appreciate your energy and enthusiasm. However, I am not sure you and I are on the same page, yet, with regards to why I call myself a “recovering legalist.” I use that term as an alcoholic might say he is a “recovering alcoholic.” Even though I may not live a life of legalism, I am still human and apt to “fall off the wagon” every once in a while. That’s when I need God’s grace more than ever.

      You talk about not “studying evolution.” Hey, that’s fine, if you don’t. The only reason I have any knowledge about the theory is because it is what is taught and believed by so many people. It is also what has caused so many do stray from the faith, simply because they did not know how to defend Scripture. 1 Peter 3:15 says that we should “be ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.” What do you say when an evolutionist asks, “Why do you believe the Bible when it never mentions dinosaurs?” Why does it matter that we didn’t evolve from apes? If for no other reason, as apologists for the faith, we should try to understand the other side of the argument in order to better make our own case. The command of 2 Timothy 2:15, that we should “study to show [ourselves] approved, a workman that needeth not be ashamed,] has a wide application.

      I need, really need to go. Time is short. But one last thing…you mentioned that you don’t do the “organized religion” thing. Does that mean that you do not go to church, any church, any fellowship, at all? Or does that mean that you just don’t want to label yourself as Baptist, Methodist, etc.? Let me encourage you, brother, to “not forsake the assembling of [yourself]” (Hebrews 10:25).

      God bless you.

      • johnedoe says:

        no apology needed Anthony,…..thus is why i “tried” to illustrate the water under the bridge thing,…ya know??? you and i are just fine,….life is too short to be stockpiling sins against one another, ESPECIALLY AS CHRISTIAN BROTHERS AND SISTERS,…i truly hope that you and yours have a great day!!!!,………….i’m just waking up at the moment,….and it is coffee time!!!! weeehheeeee!!!!!……..i’ll stop back in a while and discuss every point that you mentioned in this letter,…and in a non argumentative way,….lol!!!!!…………..as for me being hard to follow????

        lol,….i have no answer to that,..LOL!!!!!! hey man,….if you want to, print off the things i have written, and give em a read again,……i will too!!! lol but first,….i’m gonna grab my coffee!!! toksoon………..

      • johnedoe says:

        yobro!!!!!…Anthony dude!…..i have an idea you may like, but,…then again??? lol i’ll toss it in after while with my thoughts to your “not needed yet appreciated” apology letter,……..i truly hope that you dig it!!!!! toksoon, john e doe

      • jeffssong says:

        Former researcher here. (okay, I lied. I still do a lot of research all the time. Just not professionally any more.)

        I hate to say it, but evidence suggests “man came from woman” – not the other way around (study the evolution of the XX & XY Chromosomes). But the fact is: that came along long before ‘man’ appeared on this planet – part of God’s plan, so to speak. (Choice and free will keep things interesting, don’t you agree? LOL!). And the evolutionary evidence is there.

        You put it so right: “Why does it matter that we didn’t evolve from apes?” I suspect some “Divine Intervention” in our gene pool, LOL! And I think we are just one of millions of species in God’s plan. There is no “chosen ONE”. I think God is MUCH more creative than that, and isn’t one to put all his baskets in one egg. IMO, We are here to live and laugh and find happiness – and learn our lessons along the way. (In my opinion, of course!) But – there IS recounciling science and math – and religion. It’s out there – scientist’s keep finding more that there is more they do not know – and what they do find out? It’s astounding, because it means “God might be true” (meaning He exists). It’s in the science now – they are closing in on these ‘mysteries’ – while realizing: they will be mysteries until the end of time, because there are simply some things we cannot know . . .

  22. Tim A. says:

    I appreciated reading this post. Thanks for following Fire and Hammer, and for reading.
    T.A.

  23. back linking says:

    I’m extremely impressed with your writing skills as well as with the layout on your weblog. Is this a paid theme or did you modify it yourself? Anyway keep up the excellent quality writing, it’s rare to see a nice blog like this one today..

  24. voice of the Cush says:

    Reblogged this on Aaron9tm's Blog.

  25. jeffssong says:

    Actually – science is beginning to ‘agree’ with religion – a bit. As a former researcher and technician (not to mention Engineer for awhile) – I had to recouncil science and god. And I did. Most folks don’t realize: “we” (human beings and all the tools at our disposal) – can not detect 90+% of what’s areound us at all. Can’t even really figure out exactly how much is ‘missing’. Add to this particle physics and a bunch of other things . . . I found my god. Same one that you worship and everyone else. Including Muslem, Hindu, and a few others: it all ‘blends’ and makes sense to me. Had to do that (merging science and religion) in order to ‘believe’ – and the truth is: the evidence is just ‘there’ – you gotta look for it. Along with a certain amount of ‘faith’ (wry smile).

    I may not believe exactly as you believe – and yet I don’t need any believers to support me (as it seems so many other faiths have to have). But I believe in *something* – and that’s good enough for me. I recommend it (belief systems). It’ll make you a lot happier in the end – AND at the beginning (for aren’t both one and the same – sly smile & lol’ing!)

  26. I’m really puzzled that you state that all non-believers in your God are immoral and lack any kind of moral compass. Have I misunderstood you?

    • Unfortunately there is no misunderstanding. According to the Scriptures which we hold as God’s Word, all our righteousness are like filthy rags in the eyes of God. Even Christians struggle with doing what is truly pleasing in God’s sight. You see, it’s not the action that God takes pleasure in (i.e. feeding the poor, giving money, etc.), but it’s the heart behind those actions that He’s interested in. Are you doing those things to please God or to please man or to get a pat on the back? He wants us doing good things with the heart and motive to please Him – nothing else matters. So how then, could a non-believer do anything out of a heart to bring glory to God? He can’t, if he doesn’t follow God. It’s simply not possible. Therefore, his good deeds and righteousness are as worthless to God as filthy rags.

      • corio37 says:

        So we’re not supposed to do good things because they are good; we’re supposed to do good things because we are scared shitless of what God will do to us if we don’t. That sounds like a lousy way to run a universe.

        Especially when the guy in charge can’t even be bothered to show up.

        • I speak for all born again believers when I say that we are not scared into doing anything for God. We’re honored and delighted to serve the Lord in whatever He asks because we realize He’s given us so much (salvation and eternal life). We fear Him as a child would fear a father who rules responsibly. And God not only “showed up,” but he took on flesh, dwelt among us, became one of us, and suffered a death more horrible than any of us ever will in order to save us. And God is not distant. He is always near, beseeching you to cry out to Him and take His hand in faith before the time of reckoning comes.

        • johnedoe says:

          good morning guys!!!!! it’s weird when we don’t have “real” names (not saying that all in blogland don’t) because i have to start by saying,….dear “adoptingjames”,…lol….sorry bout this, but i think you understand what i mean,..lol……anyway,…i don’t want to argue, but, please don’t say the you speak for “all born again believers, okay?????? whether we are talking about christianity, politics, or being the head of a state highway clean up crew,…saying that one speaks for me, is just a bit to presumptuous, and actually, maybe demeaning is a better word. i do not say this in anger at all. i, as a “born again believer”, speak for myself….whether right or wrong.

          as for corio37 and jeffssong,…i personally feel (as well as know for a fact) that we all are very free to have our own thoughts on whatever we like,…as we are human,…and thinking is what we do. meaning, i could start writing scriptures in here like so many of do…but,…i’m not gonna. (although every now and again i do, but not here, and not now) i admire people who hang it out there in their search for the “elusive”…(whatever it is that eludes???)

          as for the “scared shitless” conversions,…lol,…(honesty is honesty, no matter how you slice it!!! lol!!!) i went to a baptist church when i was a little kid,…trust me,…there were plenty of “scared shitless” conversions there!!!!!!!!!!!! but,…fact is,…what a “good” way to get started on a “bad” foot!!! not much loving motivation there!!! if you EVER WANNA KNOW ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT HELL,…DROP ME ALINE!!!!!!! LOL!!!!…………just startin my day now,…i’ll write more n a few……

  27. jeffssong says:

    Last I saw, the Bible was published by man. Written by man’s hand. Might have been dictated by God – but man is a lousy transcriber; tends to throw his own views in lots of times. Too many, if you ask me. And then there’s the whole translations issue; ambiguous words, too much ‘symbology’ which leaves things wide open to the reader’s own views . . .

    and what is ‘good’, anyway? That is more a product of man’s mind than God’s creation. A baby dies; a wolf is fed – where’s the good or wrong in that? It all depends on who’s talking. . .

    And as far as evolution vs. creationism goes: what does it really matter? That was in the past. You are living in today.

    Question: how many people do you need to believe for YOU to believe? Is your faith so weak that you must rely on the belief of others to keep your belief system going? I often wonder at people who try to convince us of one thing or another – and then get mad because I don’t believe. Anger is a sign of fear. Does my inability to swallow their faith bother them – shaking their own faith some way? I think it’s real, that fear that if you can’t convince some others you may be wrong. Just sayin’. (A human psychology thing.)

    I don’t trust the Bible. I don’t trust any word written by the hand of man – dictated by a ‘god’ or not. I know what is ‘right’ for me and wrong for others. I know what I believe. And I think things are changing – which is the only thing which remains the same!

  28. jeffsdeepthoughts says:

    Interesting stuff here. But I struggle a bit with a dichotomy that you seem to be setting up:
    A) deny the dominanct scientific world view and in that act imply that a methodology which created electricity, space travel, genetic counseling, cures to some forms of cancer, etc. somehow just got it wrong this team through.
    B) Deny that the God as described in the bible exists.

    If the beliefs about the beginnings of the universe or the Neo-Darwinian synthesis which explains the origins of life were irreconciable to a biblical world view, I would be on board with rejecting science.
    In my opinion they are not.

    I have seen up close and personal the damage done by this false dichotomy.
    I’m a special education teacher. I work with kids who are locked up, have no resources, education, or spiritual back ground.
    Despite the fact that they generally have minimal background in science or church-related issues, they believe that they must make the choice outlined above: that it is either science or God.
    Time and time again, they choose science.
    I believe if we worked at correcting this, the choice wouldn’t happen so often in this direction. The truth is, even if the 7 24 hour day creation accounts are 100% and absolutely correct, the propogation of these views, would, I think, actually push people away from accepting Christianity. Because it’s not about how we think the world was created, it;s how we are connected to the person who created it. Setting up this world view as a precondition toward faith is such a stumbling block.

    • johnedoe says:

      HEY JEFF,….HOW ARE YOU???????? you got my attention with what you wrote here, in a good way,……..my email is johnnydoe2012@hotmail.com (anyone here is welcome to contact me this way as well)…now,….i gotta admit,..my (formal) education is only sophomore in high school, so i had to look up the word “dichotomy” (lol, but true)……more in a sec

  29. pk says:

    thanks for visiting my stuff, I’ll read further here.

  30. I agree with Babu. Making atheists and many scientists out to be people of lesser moral fibre is an ugly and polarising tactic.

    So in support of Babu’s post, stick to what you know, and avoid disrespecting people who have clear and verifiable beliefs that differ from your own.

  31. Josh Ingram says:

    Hello there! I appreciate the follow and also the guts to tackle topics as broad and deep as you have. May God bless you in all that you do. More power to ya!

    • johnedoe says:

      hey josh,…how are you doin?????? as you may have read,..there are many different, unique, and varying comments on this post,…..i’d like to ask ya somethin……..as per this part of your comment,….”and also the “guts to tackle” topics as broad and deep as you have”……could you explain why you refer to sharing and discussing what’s in the bible,..as well as what isn’t,….as “having guts to tackle?????”…….do you know what i mean?????…….i hope that you do,….i’d really like to hear more please……thanks much!

      • Josh Ingram says:

        Hey John! Anyone willing to stand up and proclaim God’s truth in light of the secular atmosphere in the world today HAS GUTS. That’s what I’m sayin’.

        • johnedoe says:

          lol,……thanks man!!!!! but,, truth is,….i don’t understand what you mean by that………jus sayin…….i mean,….why would it take guts, is what i mean??? we’re just people talkin to people,…aren’t we?????

  32. johnedoe says:

    are you a believer josh???? if so,…don’t “you” just talk to people???? ya know????

  33. johnedoe says:

    josh,….i “think” i (might) understand what you mean,…but,…i don’t want to be presumptuous here, ya know????……so, what i am about to write is not intended to put words in your mouth,…so forgive me if you think that is what i’m doing, ok????

    terms like “secular atmosphere” sound (to me) so “churchy” and “religious”,….and i don’t mean that in a good way,…..it makes it sound like non believers (and this is just me gong off of what you wrote) are those “scary people from the wrong side of the tracks”…….i’m just gonna sit here and “proclaim God’s truth” calmly,…and i hope “lovingly and encouragingly”….we,…meaning “believers” are supposed to view EVERY MAN MORE HIGHLY THAN OURSELVES!!! have you ever read that, josh?????…i would ask what you think that means,…but there is no need for that i feel,…as it is quite obvious (to me anyway)

    i myself, think that it takes “HEART AND GODLY SPIRIT” to proclaim God’s word and truth…

    the people that have came here, who are non believers,…to me, are the ones with guts,…do you think that all of these people (the non believers, etc) came here just to say mean things????? i may be wrong,….but, i don’t. i think they are just being human. making statements and asking questions……what is wrong with that??? why do we attack them (especially if we are “christians”?????)

    what they have said doesn’t not weaken my faith at all,…not in the slightest,…does it weaken yours????

    why do we as “christians” think and feel that we are Godly by running them down like dogs????? that is what happens to so many non believers (in today’s secular world)…do they feel Godly love this way???? personally, i’m guessin not…..we are told (in the bible) that “HE WHO WINS SOULS IS WISE” CORRECT??????……do you think that “souls are won” by telling people that they are going to hell eternally???? especially if they don’t believe the “same?????” as…(whoever????????)…………i just don’t want to tell anyone that…..i try to be encouraging,….i have my faults,…..i am not perfect,…..but,….even then, i still try to be encouraging……….what is so difficult about that?????

    i dot one for ya josh,…ok????…..”WHAT IF,…JUST SIMPLY WHAT IF”,….some, or all for that matter, of these people stopped by here to try to find something that may help them to have reason to believe??????,…(place their faith in Jesus, is what i mean by believe)……in so many movies, and also, in so many sermons, pontius pilate is portrayed as being a smug jackass,…when he asks Jesus,…”WHAT IS TRUTH????”………..i don’t feel that was what pontious was doing at all,……..i think pontious really wanted to know what “truth” was…..

    why don’t we view non believers in that “light”, instead of in the hopeless, damned, dirty sinner view that they are so often categorized?????????? more later…..thanks josh……

  34. Maria von Trapp had it right, when she sang (in the “Sound of Music”) “Nothing comes from nothing – nothing ever could”

    • philipotts says:

      Well, then how did God come from “nothing”?

    • ojb42 says:

      Well if you get your knowledge from musicals instead of scientists I guess that you might believe nothing comes from nothing. But the fact is that something can come from nothing according to quantum theory. Plus as “phillpotts” said: where did God come from?

  35. Not too sure we were created to worship – what kind of god would demand that? a jealous, selfish and self-serving god? I’m not altogether certain Jesus’ teachings covered that.

  36. Pingback: Why Creationism Horrifies Me, part two: Reality « The Adventures of Leo Tarvi

  37. pacwp says:

    I remember a prof at Aquinas College saying that believing in evolution wasn’t a sin, because if we believe that God is the master of all then He was the master of evolution.

    My husband is a very scientific man and a very faith-filled man, the two can and do go hand in hand. the Vatican has its own team of modern scientists, who apply scientific method and work in the realm of the now.

    • johnedoe says:

      very nice “statement!!!!!!”……they have to go hand in hand,…don’t they???? nice response pacwp!!!!! the funny thing is,…the word “science” is not all that old,…we came up with the word to describe results of our thinking and searching etc,………it’s so easy to be arguing the exact same thing, isn’t it?????? thanks again!!!!

  38. Reblogged this on digitalinklink and commented:
    To read this post was a refreshing look into the eyes of hope, and realizing that it’s still living and breathing. I don’t agree with everything said here, but there are many undeniably good points that deserve thought and contemplation.

  39. sunsetwonder says:

    If Adam and Eve had obeyed God, the world today would be very different, no sin and suffering. God loves us and has our best interest at heart, His rules and commandments are for our own good. Disobeying God means suffering the consequences, there are lots of examples in the Bible and what we can see around us and even in ourselves.

    • ojb42 says:

      Tell me, why did your god create Adam and Eve knowing that they would sin, then when they did sin why did he punish them? And even if they deserved to be punished why is he still punishing everyone else today, including giving innocent children cancer? How does this fit in with the claim that “God loves us”?

      • johnedoe says:

        i just saw this question/thought……….adam and eve????? what do you see adam and eves punishment as being??? are you speaking of how they had to go outside of the garden and live normal lives like everyone else??? if so,…is that really punishment,…or,..was it a consequence of their actions??? before they went out into the “world” to live real lives,…he sacrificed an animal and covered their sins for them…….have you read this??? so,…would that not be love, mercy, compassion, etc,….instead of punishment???

        then you said that even if they deserve to be punished, why is He still punishing everyone else today?????

        including giving innocent children cancer??????

        and finally you ask,…”how does this fit in with the claim that God loves us?????

        i think of my children,…and the thought, as well as possible reality of losing one of them,…to cancer, or otherwise,………this could easily be the first reason or excuse that any human would use, or need, to not believe in God……this is my opinion……………….but,….without God in the picture,…..then “where” do we decide that the cancer, etc, etc,…comes from???? who do we blame then????? would this just be fate???? just life???? etc, etc,…….??????………science maybe????

        moses (influenced by God) established health codes for the israelites…….did you ever read about this???? you may want to google it,……very interesting actually,……so,….there is moses,….way before science and all this new knowledge that we have “discovered” in the not too distant past,…..yet, moses knew about diseases etc,….long, long ago???????? how could that be??? perhaps God told moses to establish these Godly Health Codes, just as the bible states…………..i would have to believe so based on the facts that many of these things, yet again, were not “discovered” until recently……………..so,….why did God establish health codes???????????????

        one of my thoughts is this,……we all want to “blame God” for disease and cancer, and all “bad” physical problems that we as the human race have,….don’t we?????? as you just did/questioned earlier,…correct????? i got one for you,….what if,….man,…..in his neglect of God,…and God’s health codes,….which were established, obviously, for “our best interest”,……has brought these diseases upon ourselves????? is it tuberculosis which comes from living in filthy and unsanitary conditions??????? (neglect of God????) and as these diseases grow and mutate,…is that God’s neglect as well????? or,…i ask again,…..is it man, in his selfishness (or biblical neglect, of truth, man’s disobedience, and man’s unbelief in and of God and His ways) which has brought these “plagues” upon ourselves????? did God invent nuclear bombs???? or, was it man’s doing???? nuclear fallout and the cancer from it???? God??? or man?????……..i could keep going on this all night,….as could anyone else, if they were so inclined,……but,…if you don’t see the point of my factual line of thinking now,…then you won’t see it later…………..what if, we as humans,………….took responsibility for the results of our selfishness,…or,….another term that one could use,…our sinfulness????????? no,….most of us don’t want to hear that, do we???? let’s just blame God instead, right???? isn’t that much easier??? doesn’t that free us to live in denial of what we as power hungry and selfish humans have done to our world????? are our neighbors perhaps starving because of our lack of concern??? i had told you that even if it was proven that God wasnt real,…that i would still believe???? do you remember that?????? part of the reason is this,…….there is so much pain, and starvation, and confusion, and anger, and hopelessness in our world today,………i would choose to care, because we see the horrible (UNGODLY) results of not caring,….of selfishness,……..or are we going to find another hollow excuse for that as well?????…..whether Gos is real or not,….if we treated one another the way that the bible teaches,…that the words in the bible teaches,….that Jesus teaches,….that GOD TEACHES,…..THEN THE WORLD THAT WE LIVE IN TODAY,….WHICH WE HAVE MADE INTO WHAT IT IS NOW,….NOT GOD!!!!!!! WOULD BE A MUCH DIFFERENT AND TRULY BEAUTIFUL PLACE.

        instead,…we search for reasons and excuses NOT TO BELIEVE,….and that is exactly what we find,……as the condition of the world in which we all live together grows worse by the day,…..organized religion IS NOT WHERE GOD IS FOUND!!!!! God is found through us as individuals placing our faith in Him,…….we all seem to want proof that God exists??????? BEFORE we will place FAITH IN HIM?????????…….if we could PROVE THAT HE EXISTS,….THEN WE WOULD NOT NEED TO HAVE FAITH,….WOULD WE??????????…………so, for proof that God exists?????? look around at the consequences of Godlessness,…and then learn of a GOD OF LOVE,…AND OF A GOD WHO CARES,…..AND OF A GOD WHO WORKS THROUGH EACH AND EVERYONE OF US AS INDIVIDUALS,……AND MAYBE ASK YOURSELF,….WHAT HAVE I ALLOWED GOD TO DO THROUGH ME TO CHANGE THE UGLINESS AND DARKNESS OF THIS WORLD TO CHANGE THINGS FOR THE BETTER???? OR, FOR THE “GOOD????”,….OR,…IN A “GODLY WAY??????”………..

        SCIENTIFIC FACTS ARE THESE,……WE HAVE BROUGHT THE WORLD TO WHERE IT IS NOW,….AND WE WILL TAKE IT WHERE IT GOES TOMORROW,………….if we continue to disregard and neglect God,…….would you care to guess what tomorrow is going to be like??????????

        life is kinda like wedding vows, huh???? for “BETTER”……OR “WORSE?????”………………..i told you that i think as well as you,……..and this is just the tip of the iceberg………………….

      • ojb42 says:

        The way I understand the myth goes (and I can’t be sure because different sects of Christianity have different myths) the world was perfect until the “Fall” and that was when disease, etc was introduced. If your god made the universe he must have made all the bad things as well as the good. I challenge you to do a Google image search on “child cancer” then get back to me and tell me how great your loving god is!

        • johnedoe says:

          i’ll ask you something else then,…..by the way,…you still haven’t answered my earlier question about what “you” think “our moral codes” should be based on???? (are moral codes based on a “sense” of “right and wrong????”)

          it would be the biggest mistake or oversight that one can have is to think that i am “supposed” to “entertain” your questions,….but mine go unnoticed for the most part????……….my question for you,…..could you tell me just one piece of faith based evidence that would “make you believe???”…….i would love to hear your answer………………..so many unbelievers leave it to believers to give you proof????? you have got to be kidding right????…if you don’t believe in God, nor want to,…then why do you ask those of us who believe, anything at all??????? maybe one day, someone will say the just “right” thing for you?????

          nothing written here is between “me and you”…..as you have nothing to do with what i believe,…..nor do i have anything to do with what you believe….

          yet again,….faith is something that one can only have for oneself……..

      • johnedoe says:

        ojb,…here is a copy and paste of one of your last comments,…”The way I understand the myth goes (and I can’t be sure because different sects of Christianity have different myths) the world was perfect until the “Fall” and that was when disease, etc was introduced. If your god made the universe he must have made all the bad things as well as the good. I challenge you to do a Google image search on “child cancer” then get back to me and tell me how great your loving god is…………………….

        in what i wrote,….would you please tell me where it is that you think that you read that I DID NOT THINK THAT CHILDREN’S CANCER IS TRAGIC?????? (OR ANYONE ELSE’S CANCER, FOR THAT MATTER??????)…..i sit and here and have to wonder if you have lost a child to cancer??? if so,….as a human, i can tell you that i am truly sorry for your loss……very truly sorry,…..sincerely sorry………….as we are just written words here,…i can only guess,…..do you understand????

        as a believer,…would my faith take a serious blow if i lost a child to cancer????? i would have to say absolutely!!!!! we are all humans ojb…are we above pain and human emotions???? no, not at all,………….

        but,…if you haven’t lost a child to cancer,..or even if you have,….you summed up what i already wrote wrote concerning reasons and excuses why we don’t believe……..i don’t want sit here and post scriptures,….my desire is to try to communicate,…in whatever way possible. earlier you went so far as to attack, mock, make fun of the way in which i type????

        do you really think that trying to belittle me in such a manner makes any difference to me at all???? and i’d like to point out that just because i am discussing it here and now DOES NOT MEAN that it hurt my feelings in any way,….but instead,…it reveals to me much about you. i’m sorry for whatever it is that has hurt you so badly in your life,………wouldn’t it be great if me apologizing to you,….a total stranger,….would make life all better for you??? does that sound very real world to you? it doesn’t to me.

        but,…in your quest for scientific truth,..you failed to comment on what i wrote about many of the cancers and diseases that we suffer from are, and were, man made???? why didn’t you???? instead,…you jumped straight to your view of an unloving and uncaring God………..more later, maybe

      • ojb42 says:

        No I have not lost anyone to cancer or suffered any major loss in my life. I don’t hate god because of some horrible incident in my life. I’m using child cancer as a rhetorical point to show that your god is either evil or doesn’t exist.

        And suggesting bad things like cancer are man made is ridiculous. Your god is supposed to be the great creator and controller of the universe. Is he incompetent? Is he evil? Or does he just not exist?

        When you think about it the atheist perspective is the most generous to god. We think he doesn’t exist instead of hating him like we should if he actually existed.

      • ojb42 says:

        I think I have already intimated that moral codes are based on an evolved cognitive standard which allows us to survive as a social species. It’s a behaviour built into every sane human and there is absolutely no need for a higher power to impose it on us.

        I’m happy to answer your questions. Just make them clear and try to use well structured english sentences and less random punctuation so I know exactly what you are asking.

        There is no “faith based” evidence that I would accept. If you have faith you have already started believing. That’s circular logic, and faith can be used to support any belief or religion. That is the perfect way to believe something which is untrue!

        I have asked many believers the same sort of questions I have asked you. I have debated a well known creationist author. I have talked to actual theologians. I have never heard a single objective piece of evidence supporting your religion!

  40. It is only proper that if you are going to claim knowledge about another group, you should actually spend time and do a little research instead of presenting your own bias as fact. The reason aetheists believe what they do has nothing to do with ease or with rules or with accountability. It is simply that all the observable evidence, DNA, fossil, geology, astronomy and history support this idea. The important thing about all this evidence is that it has predictive value. Every Shepard knows that you can breed better stock. Now we know why and that knowledge tells us about the history of the world. The other reason is that aetheists acknowledge the harm done by religion. Religions all profess peace and giving and harmony but the history of the world is the history of intolerance, deviciveness and greed. And in every age a leading hand has been religion. A nice post but please do take responsibility for the accuracy of your information.

  41. ojb42 says:

    Before you start using him as a source of moral rules what evidence do you have that your god even exists? If your whole belief system is untrue it’s rather dangerous using it as a source of morality, don’t you think?

    • johnedoe says:

      we are all so funny as humans,…..aren’t we???? i have left blogland behind for quite a while, until now, that is,…….we all want to argue, argue, argue,……..and argue some more, or it sure does seem so,…..or, am i wrong in my view????? faith. faith is a strange little word, isn’t it??? it means that we believe in what we can not necessarily prove. when i get in my truck, i have faith that my brakes are going to work when i apply pressure to the brake pedal,…..but?????? what if? just what if??????? questions, questions, questions………..i have learned very much about “brakes” over the years,…but before i did, i drove many different vehicles. i had “faith” not only in the brakes on these vehicles,…but the tires as well,….and the fuel pump which resides in the fuel tank of some of these vehicles,….etc,……..faith, faith, faith,…………ho hum, ho hum,……i am “thankful” that i don’t have faith in a God that i can not prove for the purpose of adding “excitement” to my life,……because in all honesty,……this never ending banter of wasted time,…..has actually,….bored me to tears. just sayin……….life can pass us all by too easily, while we babble on (as i am doing now!) aimlessly,……..while we seek to bring nothing to the table to offer one another,,…as we all starve to death,…………now,….the reason that i am writing anything at all today is because of this comment,………

      Before you start using him as a source of moral rules what evidence do you have that your god even exists? If your whole belief system is untrue it’s rather dangerous using it as a source of morality, don’t you think?

      if your whole belief system is “untrue?????” hhhhmmmmm????????….. and then,……it’s rather “dangerous” using it as a source of morality??????

      now,….by my own admission,….i am having a rather rough and difficult day,….so forgive me for being very human right now, ok??? here is a question that i myself would love to ask,….”IF WE DO NOT USE GOD AS A SOURCE,…THEE SOURCE,…OF MORALITY,….THAT WHAT DO YOU SUGGEST THAT WE USE??????????????????

      please pick something “NOT DANGEROUS”,…OK??????

      yup,….right and wrong,….good and bad,….blah blah blah,………..we will spend what time that we have left in our lives beating everything straight into the ground while accomplishing absolutely nothing,……….thus,….out lives have absolutely no meaning at all,….by our choice not to drive the vehicle because we just don’t know for sure if the brakes will work or not?????????????????????????……….

      by the way,….even knowing all that i do about brake systems, fuel systems, electrical, engines, etc, etc,…..this does not mean that these things are without disappointments or malfunctions,……..even then,….i still choose to drive as often as possible,….but, more so, especially when i need to drive,…………………..it just makes much more sense than chatting with a bunch of naysayers who want to say that cars don’t exist so therefore driving is impossible,….blah blah blah,………..

      even if God doesn’t or didn’t exist,……i will still and always continue to believe,…………at least this way my hope has a “tangible” reason for existing in the first place,………….but now i suppose we could take the word “hope” and beat it into the ground as well………….

      have fun with that,……i have a life to live…………..and i am thankful, to a God who i cannot prove exists,…………..

      • ojb42 says:

        You seem to be confusing faith with confidence. I have confidence my brakes work because I can see the that the brake system is fitted, it tests correctly (the warning light goes off), it works when I touch it lightly, and it has always worked in the past. Faith in God however, is based on nothing. There is no evidence to have confidence in. It’s totally different.

        What is better: using a god who doesn’t exist as a source of morality or using a built-in social sense of fairness that all sane humans have?

        Your comments about meaning, etc only work if your god exists. Dedicating your life to a non-existent god is worse than accepting there is no god, don’t you think?

        So even if god doesn’t exist you will continue to believe. How odd. You actually want to live in a fantasy world. I guess we will never agree then: I seek the truth.

        • johnedoe says:

          actually,…i am confusing absolutely nothing,….but thanks for your opinion,…..let me know how things work out for you when your brakes go out coming off of the freeway at high speeds,…..brakes fail,….that is proven scientific fact. yes??????? but you still drive a car, or truck, or whatever??? correct???? i mean,…failing brakes is “proven” truth. anyway,….to each their own, correct???? have a nice day……hope all works out fine for you,…as well as for everyone else………life is good.

          • ojb42 says:

            I don’t see how the possibility of brakes failing fits in with your original metaphor for confidence in brakes being like faith in god. Sure brakes fail, but not very often. What has that got to do with god? Surely that means faith in god is even less logical?

            And yes, each to their own, but I think it is still useful to debate these points. Sometimes in these debates people suddenly realise that what they have chosen as “their own” actually does make no sense. Maybe they should get real and choose a new world view.

  42. johnedoe says:

    oh,…as for my fantasy world?????? i hope that there is not a huge semi truck and trailer in front of you “when” your brakes fail at high speeds,…..you know what i mean???? because in “your fantasy world” your brakes will “always” work for you??????…………jus sayin…..

    • ojb42 says:

      No, I really don’t know what you mean. You seem to object to me suggesting you live in a fantasy world yet you basically admitted to this when you said: “even if God doesn’t or didn’t exist,……i will still and always continue to believe”. You will believe something you know is untrue. That sounds like a fantasy world, don’t you think?

  43. johnedoe says:

    hey ojb,…how is it goin??? hey,…can i ask you something,….did you happen to read all of the posts on this thread?????

  44. johnedoe says:

    anyway,….i have no desire to get into an argument of any kind,…but what i will do is point out that when someone “changes” what i have actually said,…into something that they want to hear,….then i see no reason to continue to conversing,…or,…based on what i just said,..”trying” to converse,……do you understand??? talk about wasted time,….so,….i’m gonna reread from the first thing that i wrote today,…and try to cover a few areas that have been “blurred”,…ok???? but,…i will take my time to do so,……now,….i would truly love to converse,….but,….if “our” conversation is to be a verbal tennis match,…then i’ll pass……..so,…..i’m gonna reread some stuff now………

    • ojb42 says:

      ok, fine,… but i am… having a lot,… “of trouble” reading your… posts,… with all the…… random …….. punctuation and lack …….. of ………… sentence …………………. structure …………………….. do you ….. think you …… could,….. ease …. up…a bit,….. on …. the full. stops. ???????? :)

  45. johnedoe says:

    your quote to me,…….”So even if god doesn’t exist you will continue to believe. How odd. You actually want to live in a fantasy world. I guess we will never agree then: I seek the truth.

    when you take this collection of words and “presume” that i “want” to live in a fantasy world?????,…….i said “even if”………..even if……….you see,….”fact” is,….GOD HAS NOT BEEN DISPROVED……….or, do you know something that i don’t???????

    if the day comes when God is disproved,…then, and “only then”,…can you “accurately/factually” say that i live in a fantasy world,…..correct????? until then, your “world” is as much fantasy as mine. agreed???? more in a bit………

    • ojb42 says:

      You said if god was disproved you would still believe. You would be prepared to live in a fantasy. Is this not correct?

      God has not been disproved. It is almost impossible to disprove anything. It is up to the person making the claim that god exists to show that is true. So far that has been a dismal failure. There is not one good piece of objective evidence for god.

      My world is not a fantasy at all. I have never said I would be prepared to live with a lie. If god is proved I will believe because I believe what the best evidence shows. If that involves changing my mind I have no problem. I just follow the facts.

  46. johnedoe says:

    and another thought,….do you have a certain “preconceived” notion of what truth is???? meaning,….what type of truth are you seeking???? i am not being a smart ass at all,…this i promise you. ok??? i love your questions,…..but as i said,…..i don’t “not” love your assumptions and placing of “your” words in my mouth,…..if that is what you want to do to me during this conversation,….i will simply spit your words out of my mouth,…..ok????? more in a few……….

  47. ojb42 says:

    Th only “type” of truth I seek is that which is objective and unbiased. By that I mean truth which is supported by facts which can be demonstrated by real repeatable tests, or unbiased observations, or fit in with the facts we have already established through these methods. Basically, I follow the scientific method.

  48. johnedoe says:

    a few more quotes,..for accuracy’s sake,……”(mine) …..or, am i wrong in my view????? faith. faith is a strange little word, isn’t it??? it means that we believe in what we can not necessarily prove. when i get in my truck, i have “faith” that my brakes are going to work when i apply pressure to the brake pedal,…..but?????? what if?

    (yours) “You seem to be confusing “faith” with “confidence”. I have confidence my brakes work because I can see the that the brake system is fitted, it tests correctly (the warning light goes off), it works when I touch it lightly, and it has always worked in the past.

    (yours) I don’t see how the possibility of brakes failing fits in with “your” original metaphor for “confidence” in brakes being like faith in god. Sure brakes fail, but not very often. What has that got to do with god? Surely that means faith in god is even less logical?

    ok,….i said faith,….you said confidence,…do you see that???? then you chose to turn my words around, from “faith” to “confidence,….do you see that???? you said that you have confidence based on etc etc,…but then you followed with,………(your quote) “Sure brakes fail, but not very often.”

    your “confidence now has a fly in your vaseline”……….we are not so different after all,….do you see????

    more in a while………

    • ojb42 says:

      We are very different. I have confidence my brakes will almost certainly work because I can see they exist, I have them checked, they have failsafe mechanisms, they are a real physical system.

      You have faith in your god despite the fact there isn’t a single objective fact showing he even exists. Not one.

      I think my confidence and your faith are very different!

  49. johnedoe says:

    honest and sincere question for you,..ok???? i mean absolutely no ill will at all in this asking, ok???? what have you learned or what do you think and feel that it means to have faith,..or,…place faith in God?????………..i have thought about asking this question often, as so many of us have heard so many differing opinions on “Who and What God Is”……………many times,….our thoughts and opinions and biases concerning God, are based on our past impression of God……does that make sense?????? more in a while………

    • ojb42 says:

      Sure, ask me any question. I’ll take no offence!

      What does it mean to have faith in God? Well having observed and talked to many believers I would say it means living in a fantasy world where you force yourself to believe something which is obviously untrue. That’s my honest opinion. Hope you’re not offended!

      My past and present impression of god is that he is a figment of the imagination of certain people, originally because we had no science to explain the world, and more recently through habit, laziness, or ignorance. Again, no offence intended.

  50. johnedoe says:

    hey ojb,…..i’m gonna apologize here and now,…but after seeing the nature of your comments,…..i’m gonna go find somethin else to do with my time,…..i’m funny that way,…jus sayin,……as long as you want to try to beat someone down,..well,…then that is what is exactly what you will do, correct???? i, on the other hand,…yet again,….have better things to do. i sincerely hope that you find the truth that you are looking for,….i really do,….but,….looks like you are on your own as you do so……….c-ya

    • ojb42 says:

      You asked me a question and I gave you an honest answer. Instead of acting all offended why don’t you show me where I’m wrong? Show me just *one* piece of objective evidence which proves a god exists. Is that too much to ask? Really?

  51. johnedoe says:

    as part of my “faith”,…i gave you “freedom” to “seek the truth” that you say you that “you” seek?????……simple as that….we all have “freewill”….what we do with it,…is up to us,…as individuals…………………i gave you a question concerning your “brakes”…..yet you had total confidence in them,…and then,…you turned right around and said that you realize they fail……..do you not see the facts in “your” two “factual” opinions???? (plural)……..yet now,…you want me to give you “factual” proof that God is real???? if you cannot make a “solid and factual scientific” decision concerning your “brake systems”, failure or non-failure,….then how will you see “proof” of God????????……….as i said,……….your search is entirely up to you now,…………….as i said when i first wrote today,……faith is a strange thing,……….peace

    • ojb42 says:

      I said that I could treat the brakes as if they won’t fail (as opposed to constantly worrying about them) because the reliability is close to 100% I never claimed they were perfect. There was nothing inconsistent in what i said.

      Can you please stop changing the subject and give the best piece of evidence you have that god exists, or if you have none please just say so.

    • ojb42 says:

      Still no sign of that single piece of evidence showing your god exists? How surprising!

  52. johnedoe says:

    we all want proof,…don’t we??? what if noah’s ark was placed on the white house lawn???? would people believe then???? or perhaps the ark of the covenant???? the ten commandments themselves???? from what i have seen, witnessed, experienced, whatever,…….we would find more ways of dismissing these things so that we could remain set in our factual and scientific ways,…………..scientifically,….energy never dissipates, it just changes form,……….so,….the “energy” (spirit) in a human body leaves the body upon death,…and goes??????…….now,….the bible says that the spirit goes back to God Who gave it.

    again,…this was written a very, very long time before science came up with “it’s” truth. one goes hand in hand with the other,……..it would have to, this is just based on my line of reasoning,………

    as far as evidence???? i have been shown plenty of evidence,….because of and through my faith,.
    ….as for you,…..i can not give you the evidence that only God Himself can,…..yet you keep asking me to prove it to you??? i may be wrong,….but i am guessing you have done the same thing with many others as well????

    what is it that people are afraid is going to happen to them if they place their faith in God????? this is my big mysterious question?????????

    are we afraid of who and what we may become????????

    • ojb42 says:

      Yes, if Noah’s Ark was placed on the Whitehouse lawn I’d be impressed. But it wasn’t and never will be, will it? Because it never existed!

      We are afraid that if we place our faith in god we will be sucked into a fake and immoral belief system which has caused more harm in the world than any other. Sounds like something worth avoiding I would say.

      And I guess you’re saying there is no evidence, right? Why not?

      • johnedoe says:

        dude,…if you are a dude,…..you have just totally shown me with your total presumptions about what will “never be” in the “future” concerning something which may very well exist somewhere in the world that your view has drastically narrowed since we have first met,……….it is not a matter of arguing at all,…you are now showing no reason as well,…………

        so,….why are you on a “christian” blog,….if you are searching for scientific fact????????? you ever hear the term “barking up the wrong tree?????

        if i wanna know about white water rafting,…..you won’t find me on a sight which teaches me about how to make a lucky rabbit foot key chain, ya know?????…………..

        oh,…by the way,….thanks for answering my question about where your version of morals would come from,…………….later

      • ojb42 says:

        The reason I visited this site was because the blog author “liked” one of my blog posts. So I thought it was only fair to visit his.

        I’m showing perfect reason: it’s completely reasonable to ask for evidence if you want to believe something. If I believed things with no evidence where would it end? Which religion should I choose? They can all be believed with enough faith.

      • ojb42 says:

        Yes, there are many good people who go to church and there are many bad people who go to church too. Plus there are many good people who are atheist. If going to church works for you that’s fine, but this debate was about if the Christian god is real which is a different issue.

        I totally agree that inflexible scientists are a problem. The good thing about science is that it has mechanisms to bypass their lack of flexibility and move on to new and better theories. Religion doesn’t really do that.

        Some parts of some religious world views foster love. Others foster hate. The real problem is that religious world views are based on something which seems to be untrue so there is always an issue there with credibility.

        Yes. You need to see evidence before belief. That’s all I’m saying. If belief relied entirely on faith which supernatural entity should I choose? Jehovah? Yahweh? Shiva? Zeus? alien overlords? fairies at the bottom of the garden? I can believe in any of those with enough faith!

        • johnedoe says:

          this “debate???” do you mean this “post”,…or are you speaking of our conversation?????? i never once said that i had to prove anything to believe what i do,…you are the one who says that “you” need that,…not me slick. you are very good at putting your words in others mouths,…as i have already stated,……you bring up how much damage that organized religion has done in the world,….but from what i see,….you set out to tear down and hurt intentionally under the guise that you are seeking truth?????

          you can fool some of the people some of the time,…but,…your recorded words clearly show all of your inconsistencies, and show your clear desire to “destroy” faith which others have,….simply because you don’t have faith.

          you clearly stated that you believe in God when you said that He is responsible for all the diseases in the world,……then you said that cancer being man made is ridiculous,….is that how you put it?????

          cancer that comes from radiation (nuclear) poisoning is man made. period.

          gunpowder does not exist without humans mixing the ingredients to make it,…..yet will you blame God again?????

          the same goes for the ingredients in a nuclear bomb…..man made that.

          you make your statements based on only what you want to hear,…what you choose to hear,,….and then attack and tear down others to get people on your “side”……..you kept asking for proof that God exists,…..not me…..

          now you are going to view our conversation as a debate,…and why is it that i have a funny feeling that you think that you “won????” there was nothing to win……………..your intent is to hurt,…..where is the love in that???? or,…do you feel that you are doing good and helping others?????

          reread your words,….see them for what they are,…admit to your lies,…(for example, nuclear cancer is man-made!) then deal with your claims, before you continue on with your desire to hurt.

          i choose to believe what i believe,…….i do not need to see air to believe that it exists,…..but i believe that i does………………..

      • ojb42 says:

        I was responding to the comment from “lovingthemissinglink” in that case.

        I do try to destroy faith and I don’t apologise for it. I think faith is a really bad thing because it leads people to believe things which are not true and often those things are dangerous. Realistically I don’t expect to succeed very often because faith-based belief in untrue things are naturally protected from facts. That’s just what faith is.

        Some cancer that comes from radiation is man-made. A lot isn’t. Most cancer isn’t caused by radiation. Cancer is a “natural” malfunction of cells. Your point is invalid I’m afraid.

        I do see this conversation as a debate. Aren’t we debating the existence of god? Is there some sort of problem with that?

        You see the air all the time. Why is the sky blue? Because air is blue. In fact we see direct or indirect evidence of everything… except god!

  53. johnedoe says:

    hey, lovingthemissinglink,…i “wasn’t” talking to you,…..so????…..see ya,……

    as far as my virtual screams and stomping my virtual feet???? let me remind you, that you are one who “is” and “has decided” that i was “screaming”,…not me. i was quite calmly writing…..as i am now,….simple words on a page. the end.

    as for trying to blame me for your “leaving” religion or faith behind??? sorry about your “luck”, (or whatever it is that you may want to call it???)…because that holds no water with me,…..meaning,…that you “just clearly stated” that you “have found a better life”,..????….correct???? so i take it that you are “thanking me,…as well as the others who “sent you away” from religion. as due to your statement,…i am left no “other way” to view it. so,..”you’re welcome.”

    looking back,….to me, the most fascinating thing between the “conversation” (which you chose and choose to see as a “debate?????” to each their own though, right???) of myself and the other person is that they want to use the tragedy of childhood cancer as an excuse for their self,…as well as others,…not to believe in God. why they clearly stated. correct??? and their self proclaimed goal is to remove other’s faith in God. correct???

    so,…what if, this individual met the “parents” of one of these children with cancer, in the lobby of a hospital????? and then, upon conversing with “these parents”,…begin to remove their faith, while their child is dying in the room above????? is this done to “ease” the suffering of the “dying” child???? the “child” with cancer who the individual was so concerned about in their earlier writings here??? does it “help” to ease the minds of the parents??? if so,….how????? would the world be a better place if the parents “faith and hope” was removed/weakened/or destroyed???? if so,…yet again,…how?????

    what would i, or anyone else, have to gain, or benefit from,….having our faith taken away by another’s doubts??? a world in which there was once hope,…now, by intention,…has been turned to be viewed as a world of “hopelessness”…….why would one desire to do this to another??? not too mention,…to themselves??? i can’t even imagine (nor do i want to) what a world without hope would look like. despondency comes from hopelessness,….suicide stems from despondency. would removing hope,…and thus in doing,…”encouraging” others toward suicide, “help” anyone??? if so,….how??? we it be a way of removing the weak, or the hurting from our world??? would this make it easier on “everyone” else???

    biblically,…(not that it matters to you, or the other person) in doing this removing of hope,..that is “exactly” what satan’s goal is in the bible,…….thus leaving a void in an individuals life…..leaving a “sense of purposelessness, in their/your/my/our/everyone’s life…………no direction,…no reason for being,…or existing,….just lost souls destined to wander seeking the elusive,….with no direction,………..a bi product of lost or stolen hope,……………

    if one wants to be an atheist,…or agnostic,……or whatever,….then that’s all fine and well,….but,…why “preach” atheism??? that is my question. and it is an honest question. we talk about being “good” people,…and this, and that,…..but,…..again,…..in the (earlier mentioned) “tender and compassionate concern” for the dying child with cancer,……where is the “good” in rendering the parents hopeless???? which,…if passed on to the dying child,…renders the child as hopeless???? how could one feel that intentionally stripping a “believing” parent of hope,…”helps” the child????? would the “once believing” parent then tell the child,…you’ll be dead soon,….and that’s all there is to it???? i can think of nothing more heartless,…and,….soulless,……………cold,…………very cold….

    this is written about my views,…which are based upon things in the “conversation” had here with a total stranger (and i don’t mean you, as you simply stepped in) who claims that “God” is the one “Who” is mean???? and cold??? and uncaring??? and evil???? yet this individual wants to simply destroy God?????

    yet again,….there is no screaming an footstomping here,……….just sayin…………

    oh,….as for the “to each their own thing????”…….”if” this is agreed upon,…(which i’m not sure, but i “think” that somewhere in this comment thread it was???)…..then, yet again,….why take away,…or desire to,…..someone else’s faith??? what is to gain from nothingness???

    • ojb42 says:

      I agree that some people gain a certain amount of hope from a belief in religion. If that is the case then they are entitled to believe in the supernatural, even if it isn’t true. I also know of people who have been so disappointed with their god after they lost a child that they became depressed, so it works both ways.

      But even if some people gain comfort from their faith that wasn’t the point of this debate. We were debating the existence of god, or the nature of god if one does exist. Whether people can gain something from believing in something which is probably untrue is another discussion. We could have that one too, but it seems to me that establishing whether a god even exists should happen first.

      And the atheists I know (including myself) are generally better balanced and more accepting than anyone else. The fact that we aren’t here as part of a god’s great plan and that there is no afterlife doesn’t bother us. We just try to do the most with the life we do have.

      • johnedoe says:

        HOWDY!!!! i’m gonna say this one more time,…and i’m even gonna read and reread a few more times, our conversation,….why??? because you may have been,…but i myself “wasn’t” debating (the existence of God) at all……you were “askin for proof”…that is not debating at all. i told you that “i don’t need proof.” no debate there. you then said, there was no “proof” that would make you believe anyway. no debate there. by your own admission, you say that your mind is made up,…..and that is fine with me. i am not,…nor have not,…even remotely “tried” to get you to,…or persuade you to believe in the God that i do at all. nor will i try. nor do i need to. no debate there.

        as for gaining more “credibility????” are you serious???? in who’s eyes???? yours??? you openly believe in nothing,…yet “you” are bothered by my “stream of consciousness???” realllllllllyyy????? i am “not” writing to be argumentative,….of the two of us, you “seem” to be the one with with the argument and debate.

        you “state” that people are “entitled” to believe in the supernatural,…even if it isn’t true,……..yet you also state that your aim and goal is to take away their belief????? is this because you are “also” entitled to do so??? so much for “live and let live”, huh???

        you say that you know,…your quote…”I also know of people who have been so disappointed with their god after they lost a child that they became depressed, so it works both ways.”…

        you didn’t say “all” of them……..but you openly admit that you desire to take away the faith of all……and make them question (to the point of disbelief) what they “once” believed,…”before” having “met with you”,…?????……………

        another of your “quotes” here……”And the atheists I know (including myself) are generally better balanced and more accepting than anyone else.”……(anyone else?????)

        better “balanced???”,….and,….more “accepting?????”…..accepting of who???? accepting of what???? if you were “truly” accepting,…..wouldn’t you just live your life and “not” try to harm, steal, kill, destroy, others faith?????????? i ask,….where is “your” acceptance of “anything??????” you “can’t” even,…and “don’t” even,…accept the way that i write…..????…..i could sarcastically (for that is all it could be) apologize to you for my “lack of” writing skills,…but there is absolutely no way that i ever would. nor should i have to. should i “not” feel as if you are placing yourself on a level where you (in your un-acceptance) have decided that you should be the “one” to judge the way that i write????

        and,…i “never” said that we are all here as “part of God’s great plan”,…you did.

        another of your quotes,…” We just try to do the most with the life we do have.”……..

        in doing the “most” with what life you do have???? due to your own words,..taking away others belief is “part of” your “doing the most????? how?????

        you keep bringing up “debating”,…and “arguing????”….yet you “don’t”…or “won’t”,…or you “fail” to,….or you just choose to “neglect” answering the simplest of my questions????? a few of which i will post now from slightly earlier today,……

        “my quotes”…..”
        oh,….as for the “to each their own thing????”…….”if” this is agreed upon,…(which i’m not sure, but i “think” that somewhere in this comment thread it was???)…..then, yet again,….why take away,…or desire to,…..someone else’s faith??? what is to gain from nothingness???

        without your answering these simple questions,…as they “must” have answers,…according to your “doing the “most” with what life you do have, statement,…then i feel that this must be what you are basing your “debate and argument” point of view on?????……correct?????……….

        i would like to hear your answers to these simple questions. if your answers are “credible”, then perhaps i would entertain why i “shouldn’t/wouldn’t believe in God?????? so,…..as you have asked me,….give me proof at how i would and could do the “most” with my life,…and,….make the world a “better” place,…in the meantime,…but living my life as you do………………if nothing else,….my questions to you,…”if and when” specifically answered,….”could be” seen as a challenge, to you,…..if, to no one else…..couldn’t they???

        i have not even tried (nor will i) to offer you proof of any kind to attempt to “sway” you to believe in God…..as there is “no” proof. but you, on the other hand….by telling us all, or rather “showing us”, by “your using” of “rational thought” and “reason”,…how you “can”, “will”, and “are” making, the world a better place,….will then be showing “us” how to make the world a better place,…..

        then you can “prove” your answers,…by “illustrating” the gain in your life,….as well as all others. correct??? because your answers would have to have “worldly substance” thus rendering them “tangible”……..correct????

        i wait patiently………..if nothing else,……curious

    • ojb42 says:

      And one other thing. You would probably gain more credibility and be accused less of ranting, etc if you adopted a more structured writing style. Your “stream of consciousness” style with no real sentence structure and all the dots doesn’t make your argument look like it is very well considered.

      • ojb42 says:

        Asking for proof is a fair and reasonable part of a debate. I never said there was no proof that would make me believe. Quite the contrary: if there is proof I really want to see it. If there is a god I really want to know.

        I think other commenters (such as “lovingthemissinglink”) have found your style a bit irrational. If anyone else is here and finds your style rational and easy to follow could they comment now?

        I try to convince people that faith in something which isn’t true is a bad idea but I’m not going to try to force them in any way. I just want to present the facts.

        I just offered you some advice regarding your writing style just like I offer advice regarding believing something which seems to be untrue. It’s up to you whether you take notice of that advice.

        I’m not taking away others’ belief, I’m just showing them why I think their faith is making them believe something which is untrue. It’s up to them what they do with that. I highly value the truth so this is just something I aim to do.

        I’m not sure what this “nothingness” you speak of is. Could you explain?

        As far as making the world a better place, since the Enlightenment (where science took over from religion as the dominant worldview) human life has been much better. We have longer lives, fewer diseases, a much higher standard in general. Science has achieved more in one or two hundred years than religion ever did in thousands. This happened because science seeks the truth. That’s what I mean by making things better.

  54. johnedoe says:

    nice,….”now” you are going to build a team of people who don’t like the way that i write????? is that a “strength”,..or a “safety” in numbers approach???

    • ojb42 says:

      You asked “are you serious???? in who’s eyes???? yours???” so I thought it would be interesting to see what other people thought. Maybe it’s only me who finds your style difficult to read.

  55. johnedoe says:

    one of your direct quotes,…”There is no “faith based” evidence that I would accept. If you have faith you have already started believing. That’s circular logic, and faith can be used to support any belief or religion. That is the perfect way to believe something which is untrue!”,……..

    and another of your’s here now,….”I do try to destroy faith and I don’t apologise for it. I think faith is a really bad thing because it leads people to believe things which are not true and often those things are dangerous. Realistically I don’t expect to succeed very often because faith-based belief in untrue things are naturally protected from facts. That’s just what faith is.

    now,….do these contradict “directly” what you “just wrote?????”……minutes ago you wrote this also,…..

    “I’m not taking away others’ belief, I’m just showing them why I think their faith is making them believe something which is untrue. It’s up to them what they do with that. I highly value the truth so this is just something I aim to do.

    YOU SAY THAT YOU DO TRY TO DESTROY OTHERS FAITH,…AND THEN,…….YOU SAY THAT YOU ARE NOT TAKING AWAY OTHERS FAITH/BELIEF?????? people who believe “have found their truth”,…….but you want to take it and destroy it,…to give them “your” version of the “truth????”…..

    • ojb42 says:

      I agree, I would not believe “faith based” evidence but that’s not the same as not accepting real evidence. Faith based evidence isn’t evidence at all because you have to already believe in the thing (through faith) that you are trying to prove. That logic seems a bit circular!

      I try to destroy their faith by giving them the facts. If they find the facts compelling it might lessen or even eliminate their faith. If not then they carry on as before. It’s up to them.

      There is no such thing as a “version of the truth”. There is only one truth, otherwise you need to start believing in alternative realities accessible through pure belief. I don’t think that’s where anyone wants to go.

      So the question becomes: what is the best way to get closest to the truth? Is it to believe in some myths from an old book through faith or is it to use rigorous theorising, testing, and refining through the scientific method?

      I think science gives the best results and there are two reasons I reach that conclusion: first, it just makes sense that the testing process works; and second, science gets results.

  56. philipotts says:

    I can’t understand why a god would create us to use logic and reason in every aspect of our lives and then require us to suspend it in order to accept his existence.

    Also, if the bible is true, then “God is love” and “all good things come from the Father above” and therefore our goodness and good deeds would be of God in spite of our lack of belief (just as truth exists in spite of our knowledge of it or lack thereof). Therefore, these things are definitely NOT “dirty rags”…even from a Christian perspective.

    • pacwp says:

      I totally agree. God wants us to learn all we can about him, and if that is so why than why would he not want us to use science?

      • ojb42 says:

        I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you, but why do you think god (assuming he exists) wants us to learn all we can about him? Do most religions not encourage faith which is the antithesis of knowledge?

      • ojb42 says:

        How does encouraging learning fit in with faith? Maybe I’m missing something but one seems to encourage questioning and the other acceptance. Does the learning only cover subjects where the outcome is going to be positive from a religious perspective? In my opinion non one can genuinely study this subject and still believe.

        • pacwp says:

          To have faith you should know all you can. Faith is a relationship with God and how can you have a relationship with someone if you don’t take the time to learn more

      • ojb42 says:

        OK, so I think we disagree with what faith is then. Have a look in a dictionary: “strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.” (That is the meaning in a religious context. There are others).

        What has that got to do with knowledge or a relationship? Again, with all due respect, it seems to me that faith allows people to believe things which aren’t true. That might in turn lead to a perceived relationship with a non-existent supernatural entity but to say faith *is* a relationship seems a bit odd.

      • johnedoe says:

        hey ojb,….how you been doin?????

      • ojb42 says:

        Yeah, good thanks. Just cruisin’ around the ‘net causing trouble. You know how it is!

  57. You are so right on!

  58. johnedoe says:

    and hello to you pacwp!!!! how are you doing this fine evening!????? i am trying to follow your blog,….but i haven’t been able to link through to you yet,…..if you want,…see if you can link to mine,…….have a great evening!!!!!

  59. johnedoe says:

    lol,…another night in paradise for us both!!!! lol,….hey man,.)ojb, i mean)…if you wanna, drop me an email sometime,……someone turned me on to a book that is supposed to be quite thorough???? i’ll try to dig up the name of it and you can see if you may have already read it????? toklater……

    • ojb42 says:

      I’m prepared to look at the case presented in any book but I don’t have a lot of time for reading so no guarantees. What email address should I use?

      • johnedoe says:

        no need for any guarantee for me ojb!!! it covers many of the questions that you were askin,…this was told to me by someone who has read it….i myself,…haven’t read it either (yet) and i may,..or may not,…been pretty busy lately,…..johnnydoe2012@hotmail.com

        and,…there is piece that i wrote quite a while back on my blog page (i don’t know if you have ever dropped by my page or not???) but anyway,…one sec,…i’m gonna go see if it’s still there, k???? brb

  60. johnedoe says:

    HERE YOU GO OJB,…..it’s title is,…..”I, myself, “DO NOT” WANT, to believe in God…why would I???

    i wrote it on april the 8th of this year,…..i think you’ll maybe laugh when you scan across a few of the lines as you read????? maybe not???? lol……ojb,…i really hope that you do!!!!!

    it is just what it is,….i have yet to try to clean and polish it in any way,…..

    i really would like to correspond with you,…you can teach me some things,….send me your email if you like…… ok,….i gotta get back to “the drawing board” now,……toksoon ojb?????

    have a good one!!!!!!!

  61. teepee12 says:

    You might want to read a book by Robert Sawyer called “Calculating God.” It’s theology as science fiction. This author is an avowed atheist, but this BOOK is a rather good argument for Intelligent Creation … a HUGE turnaround form this author’s previous books. I think you would find it interesting. If nothing else, it proves that belief or non-belief in a deity is a leap of faith. It’s as difficult to be an atheist and deny the possibility of God as to believe in God. In either case, you believe without proof. Faith in the absence of God seems to me every bit as difficult as faith IN God. Me? I figure I might as well believe. Nothing to lose if I’m wrong and everything to gain if I’m right. It isn’t cynicism … it’s a choice.

  62. Ricarda says:

    It’s always interesting to read reasonable arguments for or against religion of any kind. In this case, I politely disagree with what I read. Mainly because my moral compass relies in large part on reason and logic. Christianity relies mostly on the premise: Be good and go to heaven, be bad and go to hell – with the “go to hell” part usually preceded by the claim that “bad” people have been seduced by the devil. Since the concept of the Christian god includes a “no free will” policy, this seems reasonable. Which is also where I detect a fault in their logic. If I go to hell, then eternal punishment awaits me for giving in to the devil’s temptation and being generally “bad”. Now, if I we see the devil as god’s mortal enemy and opponent, then we have to assume that obeying the devil brings as much reward as obeying god does. If not – why would I disregard god’s orders and be “bad” in the first place? This just makes no sense – in fact, the Christian devil makes no sense to me.
    Also, in regards to your claim that “we were created to worship, we have no choice in that”: I strongly believe in free will, and I deny any sort of god the right to decide for me what I should do and how I should live. But, just for the fun of it, I’ll say there IS a god, and no free will. Now, if we HAVE to worship and can do nothing but, why even threaten us with hell? Don’t atheists – who deny all possibility that there is a god – worship, then, too?
    So far, no-one was able to clear that up for me. But maybe you can? I’d like to hear what you have to say about the matter. Not the Bible. I can read that book myself I if want to know what it says.

  63. This is an interesting and well-written perspective. You touch on something I have also noticed: that people are becoming more open about what is “ok to believe.” I am surprised that you decided to follow my blog, however, after my post on atheism. It doesn’t seem like you would agree with my perspectives. But thank you for your support! It shows that we can all get along.

  64. RealGOoDCup says:

    Very nicely put! I am reblogging this and sharing on facebook.

  65. RealGOoDCup says:

    Reblogged this on Real GOoD Cup and commented:
    Pay close attention to this!

  66. I love the thought that we’re all worshiping something; it’s just a matter of what. I wrote a post on evolution a little while ago and would love to hear your thoughts.

    • ojb42 says:

      Do you think we’re all worshipping something? What do you think I’m worshipping? Nothing I can think of. I think religious people like to project their own behaviour onto others in an attempt to discredit competing worldviews. As an atheist I worship nothing.

      • When I fall into that mindset, which I do quite often – of not feeling like I’m worshiping anything – I realize after giving it some thought, that I’m really just worshiping myself by just going through life in the most simplistic and easy way possible.

      • ojb42 says:

        Many of us just aren’t interested in worship. It’s nothing to do with self-absorption or simplicity or anything else. We just realise we live in a universe with no supernatural entities worthy of being worshipped. That doesn’t mean we don’t admire anything or aren’t awed by the amazing universe we live in. But no, we don’t worship anything because that is the first step to believing nonsense and accepting atrocities.

  67. bjennings1 says:

    Wow. Nicely put. The first 2 paragraphs made me nervous and by the 3rd I was on board 100%!

  68. …from your own words. “praising Him without the distractions of this life” sounds a bit like the Buddhist philosophy. What are your thoughts on Buddhism? I like your Wall-E post the best so far! Thanks for checking out my blog as well! Bonnie Bear;

  69. valleygirl96 says:

    Great post! Well said and so true!

  70. dianeroark says:

    Great blog! I love to find blogs where they admit that they are Christians. I have adopted 2 children from over seas in July 2006. They were 4 and 7 1/2 years old. I am all for adoption but the earlier the better. Once a child has experienced neglect and trauma, it makes for a very difficult road for everyone. I would still hightly recommend adopting. Every child deserves a loving home where they can hear and learn about God.

  71. Praise God for the freedom that we all can have to discuss about this amazing, merciful and the wild lover. Oh and thanks also for dropping by and liking my post. I appreciate it. Cheers!

    • ojb42 says:

      Why should we praise God for this ability? God’s various churches specifically removed the right to free speech for hundreds of years. it is only with the Enlightenment, where religion was rejected, that true free speech began. You should be thanking rationalism, science, and atheism for free speech, not your imaginary god!

      • Ricarda says:

        I think we should always remember the difference between organised belief systems and the essence of those systems. I see nothing wrong with the whole “Jesus says to love everyone” thing (as long as I’m free to tell an a-hole that he IS an a-hole), but I do think there is A LOT wrong with what churches and sects teach about his philosophy. Rabid defenders of science and atheism as the only truth are just as bad as those who try to force everyone to convert to their religion.

      • ojb42 says:

        Yes, I agree that there is a lot of positive philosophy in the (alleged) teachings of Jesus. But there is also a lot of good philosophy in Buddhism, ancient Greek philosophy, and many other sources. By attaching too much credibility and importance to one source (Jesus) people remove the possibility of alternative views which are often better and also fail to critically evaluate their chosen source. This happens whether the person is a member of an organised religion or has just decided for some reason that Jesus is the only source of wisdom worth following.

        There are probably some “rabid” defenders of science and atheism out there but I think more often this is used as an excuse to try to accuse the attackers of religion of having the same faults as their religious opponents. Some people would see me as “rabid” for example but I simply follow the evidence. Show me real facts and I will change my mind. I have no emotional attachment to any particular idea.

      • Hi, thanks for leaving me your comments. I can see your reasons that religion can hinder God’s purpose for His people. I can only speak for my own experienced with God and why we praise Him. It is because he is good and even if we can’t see His work we cannot deny His existence. Personally, besides looking at the obvious of the power and beauty of the earth, I also experienced His love, His peace, acceptance, friendship, and His joy. His presence and His fellowship gave me contentment and most satisfied heart that the world has never given me before inspite, of giving myself to slavery into many gods.
        Although rationalism and science has definitely a place in our existence but ignoring the love of God, who has the power to erase our debts- that man or woman is a fool. I was that fool!!!

      • ojb42 says:

        When you say “we” cannot deny his existence I presume you mean people already part of your religion because many people (including me) *do* deny his existence and with very good reason.

        You say your god is good? Then why does he allow child cancer and other terrible things to happen? Maybe he isn’t so good! (or more likely, doesn’t exist at all)

        If believing in a god makes you feel happy then that’s fine. I agree some people get a lot of happiness from their religion but often the opposite happens too: many religious people are intolerant of others for example.

      • Ricarda says:

        ojb42, I didn’t “accuse” anyone of anything in particular. What I meant was that trying to forcefully convince someone of your belief system and not taking “no” for an answer is bad. If you think your religion or whatever is cool, fine. Convince me that I have something to gain from joining it, be it secular goods or spiritual guidance or whatever.
        Besides, I’m siding with the “evidence” faction here. Prove that there is a god (or rather, THE God), and I might change my mind. AFTER I had the opportunity to have a nice, private chat with said God about why exactly he needs me to worship him (ego-issues?). …sorry, but that’s how it is.
        Still, crazykindness, you have a point. If God exists and created us, he might really love all of us. But I just don’t get why we have to live with death, war and diseases then; if he means for us to live like that, then he has to accept that there are other ways than what Christianity teaches. Just sayin’, what churches teach just doesn’t make much sense to me…

      • ojb42 says:

        Ricarda, I basically agree with everything you say, except I do think it is OK to strongly persuade someone to accepting your worldview if you genuinely believe that view has merit. Therefore I don’t blame religious people for trying to convince me they are right but they shouldn’t be offended when I try to convert them to a more rational, atheistic worldview.

  72. johnnyova says:

    Hey bro I am so glad you enjoyed my post! Read your article! Great stuff! Keep up the good work!

  73. “we were created to worship!”
    I personally was not created, I was born. And I was born to live, not to worship. To me, religion is a narrative that tries to make sense of the world to humans. Universe is much more complicated than just God willing humans to worship Him.

    • ojb42 says:

      Yes, this idea that some religions have that their god wants them to worship him is just bizarre. Is their god so insecure that he needs constant reinforcement of his status? Surely an entity which created the universe has got better things to do than listen to a bunch of mindless sheep drivelling on about how great he is!

    • Ricarda says:

      “Universe is much more complicated than just God willing humans to worship Him.” Indeed ;)
      Which just leaves me to say that even if you can’t prove that something exists, you also can’t prove that it doesn’t exist. There could be a god, or a being that could be defined as such, somewhere (which is why I’m reluctant to call myself an atheist, but when I say “agnostic” I get weird looks -.-). But then again, if he has the whole universe to play with, why bother with us?

      • ojb42 says:

        The terms “atheist” and “agnostic” have a lot of overlap. All the atheists I now (including myself) don’t deny that a god could exist, but since there is absolutely no good evidence that one does we currently take the position that there is no god. Some people would call that agnosticism but I don’t think so.

        The dictionary definition of agnostic is “a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.” Few people would hold that view, I think.

      • Ricarda says:

        I suppose that always depends on which definition you read (sometimes, I hate philosophy… there is ALWAYS someone who says different on EVERYTHING). I side with those who say “we cannot know whether there is a god or not, so we don’t claim that either is true until we get proof”. I guess that’s a rather loose definition of it, but still much more suitable for me than plain atheism.

      • ojb42 says:

        But you can’t live in a perpetual state of doubt about everything. You’ve got to conclude what is most likely to be true and accept that unless new evidence arises which might change your mind. Do we remain agnostic about unicorns? Or fairies at the bottom of the garden? Why do we need to give god special treatment in this way?

      • Ricarda says:

        Actually, I give the fairies the benefit of the doubt. As I said, we can’t prove beyond a doubt that something doesn’t exist – so, I don’t give god a special treatment here, he gets treated the same way everything else does. So, yeah, actually, I do live in a perpetual state of doubt. Or rather excitement – the universe is still full of surprises, and why should I walk around sticking to only hard evidence and nothing else? I’m willing to believe that just about everything could *possibly* exist somewhere, including god and unicorns.
        The world would be a very dull place if no-one ever believed in anything. I do in fact chose what is most likely, in cases that matter in my everyday life. Society developed in a way that made it necessary for me to decide whether I do believe in a god or not, so I made that decision, but it’s not definitive. It was never necessary to decide whether I believe in fairies, so I don’t have such a strong opinion about them. However, I still like to think that there is something magical about the whole world, making it a more beautiful place, no matter what form this magic takes. But if you’d like to engage in a discussion about how likely the existence of fairies is, please, go ahead, I’d be delighted. No-one ever does that… (Again, I’m being serious here.)

      • ojb42 says:

        I think few people genuinely live in a world where they doubt everything as you suggest. Do you carry a butterfly net when you visit your garden just in case you get the chance to catch a fairy? Do you take out medical insurance to cover the possibility of being injured because gravity doesn’t work as expected tomorrow? No. So why live in doubt regarding god as well?

        I agree it is sad that some people refuse to see the excitement in new discoveries but I think that should be limited to things which are likely to happen. The discovery of the Higgs: yes! Quantum computers: yes! The existence of god: probably not.

        Regarding fairies: there is zero good evidence suggesting they exist. Therefore we accept the interim conclusion that they don’t exist… just like god.

      • Ricarda says:

        Why do you think I would want to *catch* a fairy, anyway? I wouldn’t want to be caught in a net, either, so why would I go around catching things?

        Anyway, I think we represent the two ways of dealing with zero evidence: One is to demand evidence or else we don’t believe what someone says. The other is to shrug and accept that even if there is no proof now, there might be in the future or never, but this doesn’t m, and we get along just fine ;)

        Also: Do you always wear a helmet and a back protector in case you get hit by a car? Entirely possible, even likely if you live in a city, but you still go out totally unprotected. That’s why I don’t carry a net, as you suggested. Everything *could* happen, but I don’t expect it to happen every second. When it finally *does* happen, I have time enough to worry about it… even if the event in question is the discovery of a very real (and possibly angry) god…

      • Ricarda says:

        I think a sentence got cut off there…
        This “but this doesn’t m, and we get along just fine” is supposed to say “but this doesn’t mean it is entirely impossible. Both ways are fine; I know people of both kinds, and we get along just fine”. Dunno what happened there…

      • ojb42 says:

        Well you wouldn’t necessarily want to catch a fairy but (as I am sure you are aware) I was using that as a rhetorical point to show that you don’t really expect to see one even though there is no 100% proof that they don’t exist.

        Ricarda said: “One is to demand evidence or else we don’t believe what someone says. The other is to shrug and accept that even if there is no proof now, there might be in the future or never, but this doesn’t mean it is entirely impossible. Both ways are fine; I know people of both kinds, and we get along just fine”.

        I totally agree. In fact I use both. I demand evidence before I will believe anything and I also understand that even if there is no evidence now there could be in the future. I think the only difference between us (and it’s really a minor point) is that I act as if unproved ideas are untrue until I see evidence for them.

        My point was that I think in reality everyone does this, so even if people claim to be agnostics most of them are really atheists. If they remained totally open to the idea of god shouldn’t they follow Pascal’s Wager?

      • ojb42 says:

        Another point: almost all believers are atheists. They don’t believe in most gods (so they are atheists in relation to them) but they do believe in one. Which one they believe in is primarily arbitrary. The only difference between them and me is that I extend my atheism to one more god than they do!

      • Ricarda says:

        ojb42 said: “My point was that I think in reality everyone does this, so even if people claim to be agnostics most of them are really atheists. If they remained totally open to the idea of god shouldn’t they follow Pascal’s Wager?”

        Not if I consciously decide that what I could *possibly* gain is not worth the effort, but that’s entirely up to me; I don’t find the thought of a peaceful but boring eternity very appealing. And then there is the whole Satan-punishing-those-acting-against-his-arch-nemesis-is-not-logical thing; but that’s a discussion for another day (literally, it’s 2 a.m. here…).
        But what you said is an interesting thesis, especially because it can be used as an argument for both sides…

  74. Pingback: A Manager’s Goal: Creation of Another Manager | X...Marking Your Spot

  75. julia4jesus says:

    Like this!!Quote>>”– we were created to worship! We are drawn to worship as a moth is to a lamp. If you spend hours gaming online, you’re worshiping. If you spend your workday anxious to get home to HBO, you’re worshiping. God made us to worship; we have no choice in that. But we do have a choice as to what we worship.
    Will you continue to worship this false idea that there is no God and life is all about you and your loved ones? Will you worship the idea that we are supplied with an array of choices before us and each one holds the key to eternal Me-time? Or will you worship the preserver of life, who created you to worship Him, so that you can have a lifetime learning to fall in love with Him, and greatly desire to spend your eternity praising Him without the distractions of this life?<<Unqoute!

  76. julia4jesus says:

    Reblogged this on Blossom and become beautiful in Christ… and commented:
    Quote>> Heaven will be about worshiping Jesus Christ for all of eternity.
    If that sounds dreadful to you, then you’ve really got to rearrange your priorities, and learn who’s more important. You or God? I’ll admit that even as a Christian, I sometimes get wearied by the idea of worshiping Jesus for all time instead of taking a never-ending breather from life. But here’s the good news – we were created to worship! We are drawn to worship as a moth is to a lamp. If you spend hours gaming online, you’re worshiping. If you spend your workday anxious to get home to HBO, you’re worshiping. God made us to worship; we have no choice in that. But we do have a choice as to what we worship.<<Unquote

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